Berean

If your friend is calling herself that she would have to be well over 100 years old. No Evangelical has used that term since it began to have pejorative overtones in the late nineteenth century. And even if she did use it, I doubt very much that she would define it in the same nonsensical way most atheists do.

How on Earth do you get that? Careless reading, I guess. Exodus 34:1 says specifically that He’s going to "write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables". How much clearer do you need it? Whatever new laws (actually, they’re not new, they’re a repetition of something else) God then proceeds to dictate are irrelevant to what goes on the stone tablets, because they’re going to contain exactly the same stuff that was on the first two.

As to why God chose to recite the various commandments about feasts and other issues relating to pagans (largely from Exodus 23), given the context this should be obvious. Moses has just come down the mountain to find the people cavorting around and stuffing themselves in front of a golden calf. Evidently a refresher on paganism and acceptable holidays was needed.

It refers to the first time in Exodus 19 and 20. The verse is immediately preceeded by a recalling of the fire on Mount Horeb, which only happened the first time. And if, by your own admission, you’re not well-versed, should you really be trying to find contradictions in the Bible?

Your own quote rather disproves your argument, doesn’t it?

Or maybe He's just done an excellent job of hiding the truth from the uninspired.

Mageth

No Evangelical has used that term since it began to have pejorative overtones in the late nineteenth century.

Like many absolute statements, this is provably not true. Do a web search for "fundamentalist" and you can find links to evangelicals that call themselves "fundamentalists." Here's one:

<a href="http://fundamentalistforums.com/" target="_blank">fundamental baptists</a>

Here's a (xian) discussion about the use of the term "fundamentalist":

<a href="http://www.victorious.org/chur21.htm" target="_blank">Discussion on xian fundamentalism</a>

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Grumpy

Ah, but how can true fundamentalists dare to have a presence on the Satan-Wide-Web?

Javaman

Hmm... God wants to hide the truth from the people he loves?

Whatever may or may not be intended, there is no other frame of reference in Ex. 34 for the 10 laws given other than being the Ten Commandments. They are certainly not referred to as such earlier in Exodus.

Javaman

As one raised without any form of religion, I've wondered what would happen if I decided I needed to find some. I have extrapolated far enough to decide that Christianity would be darn near the end of the list. I would certainly have a lot of trouble living by a belief system that makes no requirements about being a good person.

I mostly leave the contradiction finding to those who have the time and dilligence to do so such as <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html" target="_blank">Donald Morgan</a> and <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/bible.html" target="_blank">Theodore M. Drange</a> who are obviously much better at it.

Kosh

Yeah, that's it.


I don't think you have a foot to stand on here Berean. I can see how you reasoned your way into those apologetics, but there are a couple holes in your reasoning (large enough to drive a truck through).

consider that in Exodus 20, we have the 10 commandments listed. Then in Exodus 34 we have this:

34:11 "Be sure to observe what I am commanding you this day ..."

Then follows a list of 10 commands. 34:17 and 34:21 are from the original 10 commandments listed in chapter 20.

Then God says to him: "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

And here's the kicker: "And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments"

Those would be the 10 commandments which had just been listed. And just in case you missed it, they are different from the original in 8 of the 10. If your assertion is true, then why were two of them mixed in there?

Jayman

But Christianity does stress ethical living. The second greatest commandment (behind loving God) is loving your neighbor as yourself. Jesus says, "that if you love me you will keep my commandments."

When we say we are saved by grace through faith we mean that we aren't saved by anything we do (i.e., you don't have a list of good works to get into heaven). However, faith without works is dead. Anyone who has faith in God tries to follow God's commands. Faith and works are intertwined. Even Paul, who declares us saved through faith, provides ethical teachings to the communities he's writing to.

rodahi

If you will read Mark's narrative, you will find that Jesus is NOT a loving person. Count the number of times he uses the word "love."

Also, in Luke's narrative, Jesus states, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

How can anyone respect a man who demands that his followers hate their family members?

Berean

Really? Well, maybe you're having trouble driving...

OK so far. Let's say you've got the key in the ignition.

Um, not quite turning over...the two are not quite the same, but close. However, one of them is also in the list in Exodus 23 (about the Sabbath rest) and the other is restated as not making any molten gods - hmm, could that possibly be a reference to the golden calf as I suggested? This looks like it's going to be evidentiary for my position.

Oh-oh. Your attempts to start the engine are draining the battery. This is a big so what? God tells Moses to write down the commands, right? BUT He has already said that HE will write the ten commandments HIMSELF, not Moses. So obviously He is now referring to something other than what will go on the tablets. Let's think - could it possibly be this secondary list of commands that don't merit His personal inscription?

Rats! The truck died. The quote confirms my last point, and your question is already answered.

Kosh

Let me just say this about your tone, Berean. So far people have been trying to treat you with respect. However, with as few posts as you've made here, you're already establishing your tone as that of a royal ass. If you continue to do so, don't be surprised if it gets reciprocated.

I find your apologetics unconvincing, as do the others in this thread. Consider us all "uninspired".