aza wood

If we use the bible (as Don does)There is no after the fact, since "Jesus" resurrected and is believed to be alive today, according to the bible, which Don believes in enough to base this whole article on. So the "non-biblical" writings,( books about "Jesus") in our time alone are to numerous to be counted.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

aza wood

I do not doubt your good intentions Don. I only mention your duplicity. In trying to show, the bible and/or "Jesus" wrong, by using the bible, and "Jesus" words, as your ONLY source, gives credibility to both. Plus, your "proofs" are inaccurate at best.
Unless you are making a joke, you make no sense.

aza wood

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Morgan:
[QB]

Unless you are clairvoyant, or some such, you could not know with certainty what the purpose of the article is. The title alone does not necessarily reveal the purpose. The title is meant to be an attention-getter. The context is a better indication of the purpose, but even then, someone who is basically imperceptive might not get it. In any case, and unfortunately for the sake of the accuracy of your statement, you state only a small part of my purpose. My main purpose was to get Christians, and particularly fundamentalist Christians, to actually think about what the Bible says with regard to who is and isn't a false prophet and what the Bible says about what Jesus allegedly said and did, then apply the first to the second and consider that in the light of Jesus allegedly being perfect. I hope you will begin to understand.

--Don--
Yes i do now understand, you did not mean to prove that "jesus"was a false prophet,(although stated 7 times). So the fact that you did not prove it, is insignificant. I suspected that this was only some kind of spoof on your part, and now i see that, this is the case. Thank you Don.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

aza wood

Yes Don, we are in almost complete agreement.
The only points that i have made contrary to your post, is that your understanding of the meanings of the bible verses quoted are wrong, and that you did not prove "Jesus" to be a false prophet. I now have learned from you, that you did not necessarily mean to prove that anyway. The tittle was only an attention getter. You where just spoofing on the funies. So i guess you have cleared this all up. Thanks Don.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

NOGO

Jesus did in fact say exactly when that would take place and here is the evidence.


Matthew 24
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, ""Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

The story above indicates the following. Jesus was speaking to his discples in private who asked him two questions.
[1] When will the temple be desctroyed and
[2] what will be signs of Jesus' return and the end of the world ?

We can assume that the rest of Mt24 are Jesus' answers.

Matthew 24 cont...
And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains; Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

I stop the answer here to show something and then we will continue. What follows is a passage from Luke where basically the same story is told however Luke has more precise information on what Jesus meant by all this.

Luke 21:20:26
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Note the two similar sentences which appear in both texts.
"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains" and
"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days"
Note also that Luke speaks about "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and "Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles". This makes the whole text quite clear. The discples asked Jesus when would the temple be destroyed and Jesus is answering this very questions. The temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by the Romans in the year 70. All this text is refering to those days. Let me be more precise. The temple from which Jesus came out of in Matthew 24:1 is the temple that was destroyed by the Romans in year 70.


Matthew 24 cont...
But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or "There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. But immediately after the tribulation of those days ...

At this point Jesus was finished with the first question ie "when will the temple be destroyed?" Note the words "Behold, I have told you in advance". Jesus is warning his disciples about things that they will see. Now he continues to asnwer the second question ie "What will be signs of his socond coming and the end of the world"?

Note the words "immediately after". Not 2000 years after ...

Matthew 24 cont ...
.... THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

So this is the end of the world which according to this text came right after the destruction of the temple. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Conclusion
1) Jesus is speaking to his discples in private
He continuously tells them that "you" will see this and that ...

a) See to it that no one misleads you
b) You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars
c) Then they will deliver you to tribulation
d) Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
e) But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near
f) Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or "There He is,' do not believe him.
g) So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

2) So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
This sentence says it all. Speaking to his disciples in private Jesus tells them that when they see all these things they will know that the the end is near.

"They see" ... not someone 2000 years later ... THEY (the apostles).

3) Jesus is answering two questions
When will the temple be desctroyed [1] and
what will be signs of Jesus' return the end of the world [2] ?
Luke makes it clear that the armies surrounding Jerusalem and then trampling on Jerusalem can be no other that the Roman armies in the year 70. These are the tribulations referred to which answers the first question.
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days ..." is the end of the world
So Jesus is saying that his second coming and the end of the world is to come right after the destruction of the temple. This anwers the second question.

What about the "only the father knows the day and hour"?
Jesus knew that it would be within the then current generation (he said "this" generation not "that" generation) but he did not know the exact day and hour.

You cannot take this sentence to mean that it can be anytime even 2000 years later. The day and hour is far more precise than this generation. So the only possible conclusion is that "this day" and "this hour" is a time within "this generation".

Now what did Jesus' followers understand by all this?

Paul's mystery
1 Corinthians 15- 51:52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Who is Paul talking to? The Corinthians!
He is telling them that "we" shall not all die, but shall all be changed.

Now just picture the assembly of Corinthians listening to someone reading Paul's letter.
What do you believe that they understood by this. Did they think ... "Ah, this wont happen for another 2000 years, so why worry" .. or did they think that Paul was saying that some of them would be there when it happended?

It is obvious that to Paul "this generation" meant just that.

There are more examples of Jesus saying that the end would come within the then current generation and there also more examples of what his disciples understood by this.

Jesus was therefore a false prophet.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

aza wood

That sounds more like three questions, instead of only two, ie (1)When will these things be,(2) what will be the sign of thy coming, (3) and of the end of the age.

You do know what happens when we ASS-u-me?

Are you saying that "Jesus" did prophesy of the destruction of the temple? What you have shown proves that "Jesus"could for-tell the future.

I wondered why you made "the sign of thy coming and the end of the age, into one question, instead of the two questions that they are. Now i see. If they are two , they do not fit into your sinopis

As you have said, "Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.". Since this is in your same statement, and has very much to do with the tribulation of the jews under, Titis-Xian Church-Nazis-right up to today's bombings. The tribulation is not over, so you can not call "Jesus" on that one yet." Also, since you (like Don) want to use the bible; Mark, speaking of the same event, that you have mentioned from Mat. and Luke, tells us that"Jesus" said "But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither((( the Son,))) but the Father. Since "Jesus" said openly, that he did not know when he was coming back, how can you say that he is a false prophet, for saying that he did? Mar13:32

As you said, the gentile age must finish first. So you are a little premature on calling "Jesus" a False prophet. Again in your text, which is not found in Mat. As you said, "Jesus" plainly says that he does not know when he is coming back. ie You said "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. So you can not say, both he does and he doesn't in the same post and be correct. Maybe you can! This is the secular web, and anything is possible for atheists here.

Lets look at the whole verse as you have it above. It says,"So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. BUT OF THAT DAY AND HOUR NO ONE KNOWS, not even the angels of heaven, NOR THE SON, but the FATHER ALONE. So once again you are saying the he did say when he was coming back, and he also said "of that day and hour, i just don't know. Hmmm?

He was only speaking of the Jerusalem being destroyed, and the gentiles ruling it, and causing the jews tribulation, because he excludes his coming by saying "I just don't know about that day."

The end of the age was near.

As ask by his very stupid disciples.

As you have said above"jesus' said, But all these things are only the beginning of sorrows, and the gentiles will trample down the holy city, until their time is over. Which has not happened yet.(read the papers lately).

No. (according top the bible) after this is the sign of "Jesus"coming. The end of the world will not take place for many centuries after that., only to make a new one.

If you repeat something that is incorrect enough times, it will not make it correct.

The gentiles are still in Jerusalem, and "jesus" said," this generation will not pass away until all is fulfilled,(destruction of Jerusalem) but of that day and hour I just do not know.

So you put trust in what the Corinthian church thought. According to the bible "Jesus" taught that the master may delay his coming, and that no one would know when he would return. The whole idea is to be ready, for no one knew when it will be. The bible says everything, and can be used to prove every side of every argument.

You have not proven that from your post.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

Bree

aza wood - can you please get off the circular arguement kick? It's getting rather annoying. You cannot keep regurgitating the "you cannot say the Bible is crap and then use it as a source" argument forever - it's getting tiring and your argument (if you ever had one in the first place) is lost.

aza wood

Removed by aza, because of own stupidity!

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

aza wood

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aza wood:
[QB]

OOps, I have just noticed that you are the moderator. i am sorry for my lack of respect. Please forgive me. I will remove my first post to you. Thanks Bree!

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: aza wood ]</p>

NOGO

I have to any impartial and logical observer. I know that no proof will ever be enough for believers. That goes without saying.

The reason that I put (2) and (3) together can be found below

Mt 24
.... THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,

You can argue that a great period of time may elapse between the stars falling from the sky and the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the sky but this will not change a thing in the issue at hand. So if you want three quations you can have it.

This is the kind of proof believers must necessarily settle for. If the future can be foretold then it is fixed and noone has any choice but to do what the future damands us to do. We are then all but programmed robots. The Jews had no choice but to rebel and the Romans had no choice but to destroy the temple.

How so? As far as I am concerned it makes no difference what so ever. Perhaps you can exaplain how the three question scenario destroys my (as you say) "synopsis".

You seemed to have missed something here. Let me try again.
Note this sentence.
So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Two things are important here which you have ignored.
1) "when you see all these things"
Jesus is saying to his disciples in private that THEY WILL SEE ALL THE THINGS that he talked about. He did not say when you see some of these things or when people at some future time will see some of these things ... he said when YOU see ALL these things.

2) "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"
Note the words "this" (not that) generation.
Also note the words "all" these things will take place before this generation will pass.

So all the things that Jesus mentioned not only must take place within a single generation but also the twelve disciples must witness all these events.


Jesus does admit that he did not know the exact day and time. So?
The hockey season will be over within weeks but the exact day I do not know.
Why do you see a big problem here. Am I in contradiction? Will anybody say that I have no idea of when the hockey season will end?

If someone reading this line says:
NOGO is saying that the hockey season will end in a few weeks
Aza wood:
No, no, no, NOGO does not know when the hockey season will end. He admits that much himself.

Your position is so weak that you need even these flimsy arguements for support.


If his discples are that stupid then perhaps you should not believe anything that they have said.

Matthew 24 says that the sun will be darkened and the stars will fall to earth. Do you know what happens when a single star falls to earth ???

Please indicate to me where the bible says that the end of the world will take place many centuries after that. This is for my own edification. Thanks.


Yes, you are absolutely right about that so why do you keep doing it.

The letter in question was written by Paul and it is part of the New Testament. Are you saying that you do not trust this letter? Paul is telling the Corinthians that some of them will be alive when Jesus returns and Paul is inspired isn't he?

Here is another example ...

1 Thess 14-17
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Note the bold text.
The author is talking to another early Christian community here and his telling them eseentially the same thing as was told to the Corinthians.

Note also the words
"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

Again the use of the "we" which includes the author and part of his audience. But also note the words "are left till the coming of the Lord". The idea of this text is that although some Christians had died this does not pose a problem because they (the dead in Jesus) will rise first and then those who are LEFT (ie have not died) will be caught up together with them in the clouds.

It is obvious that author who speaks here "According to the Lord's own words" is expecting the coming of Jesus within his lifetime.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>