Answerer

All Buddhist sects eventually led to the same goal. The best way of determining whether the 'special privileges' of monks is correct or not, is to talk to the Theravada monks themselves rather than misinterpret some Buddhist articles.

Primal

Monkey: I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot and apologize if I was a bit snappy.

Logotrix: I agree, the third source is questionable. But you haven't refuted my other two sources with anything more then conjecture. Please put up some links to a few sites with quotes to show me directly how mine are incorrect. Sadly, I don't have all day to go sifting through the sites you gave me and arguing with you over an interpretation of what the "true message" of Buddhism is about. We are talking about what Theravada Buddhists believe, if you think this diverges from what the historical Buddha taught *shrugs*, not relevant really. They simply disagree.

Please provide a link and quote from a specific article that claims Theravada Buddhists do not think only monks can reach Enlightenment.

If you want more sources from me, I got more:

<a href="http://mcel.pacificu.edu/mcel/omm/B1441.html" target="_blank">http://mcel.pacificu.edu/mcel/omm/B1441.html</a>

<a href="http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/BUDDHISM/THERA.HTM" target="_blank">http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/BUDDHISM/THERA.HTM</a>

<a href="http://atheism.about.com/library/world/KZ/bl_ThailandBuddhism.htm" target="_blank">http://atheism.about.com/library/world/KZ/bl_ThailandBuddhism.htm</a>


Just to let you know: I've spoken to a person, a world religions professor whoa ctually visited Thailand and lived with Buddhist monks. He agrees that they believe only monks can reach Enlightenment because they are the only ones who have enough time to follow the Eight-fold path as diligently as required.

Of course I am aware that different sects of Buddhism have some basics in common, otherwise it wouldn't all be called "Buddhism". However, just like different sects of Christianity, there are sometimes major differences as well.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Primal ]

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Primal ]</p>

Waning Moon Conrad

Now that is a nice one!

monkey mind

That I can agree with, that many Theravadan's hold the belief that only the clergy has real hope of finding enlightenment in this life because they are the only ones who have the time to practice diligently. I don't think that this is a teaching of Sakyamuni Buddha, but rather just a generally held belief.

I think this seeming contradiction comes from the fact that the Buddha taught that everyone can achieve enlightenment, but also strongly encouraged the monastic life.

Below I have a link to a book by a Pali translator who argues one step further and says that no one can reach enlightenment without meeting a Buddha. I've never read it, but I've heard it is an excellent book.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9559028022/qid=1038078081/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8823715-5748800?v=glance&s=books" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9559028022/qid=1038078081/sr=1-1 /ref=sr_1_1/002-8823715-5748800?v=glance&s=books</a>

I go to a Thai temple for meditation but I personally like/am more familar with the Pure Land, Zen and Mind Only schools from China. The Pure Land school is definately a lot different from the Therevadan because it uses the 'Western Pure Land' as a stepping-stone towards enlightenment. This philosophy is meant to provide a means for everyone to achieve enlightenment sooner rather than later.

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]</p>

Seraphim

By Primal :

"Virtually from the beginning, however, the Buddha acknowledged that it would be difficult for a layperson to follow all aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path singlemindedly. "

"Just to let you know: I've spoken to a person, a world religions professor whoa ctually visited Thailand and lived with Buddhist monks. He agrees that they believe only monks can reach Enlightenment because they are the only ones who have enough time to follow the Eight-fold path as diligently as required."

My reply : There is nothing hard about following the 8-fold path as below :

Right Understanding
Right Thought
Right Behaviour
Right Speech
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

All a person needs is will-power to accomplish it.
Right Understanding and Thoughts needs patience to listen and patience to think.

Right Behaviour will come by above condition (Understanding and Thoughts).

Right Speech will come from proper behavior.

Right livelihood comes from mastering your greed. Mastering your greed can be achieved by Right Behavior.

Right Effort comes from all above (since Effort is not made for sake of wealth alone but also for other things such as education etc).

Right Mindfulness and Concentration comes from Right Effort to achieve the above.

All this is not simply doctrine or something that is impossible to achieve, it already becomes a working example in Zen Buddhism (which used by Samurais and Martials Artists then and now).

gsx1138

Before this Zen experience I had meditated in my Martial Arts classes but used it as a way to relax and focus my mind on a technique that I needed to improve. I haven't been back to the temple in a few weeks due to my Anatomy class taking up all of my time but I do want to attend again. Having been raised in a cult for all of my childhood I'm very wary of any religion. I'm just interested in personal enrichment and buddhism seems to be pretty good for that so far.

Seraphim

"Before this Zen experience I had meditated in my Martial Arts classes but used it as a way to relax and focus my mind on a technique that I needed to improve. I haven't been back to the temple in a few weeks due to my Anatomy class taking up all of my time but I do want to attend again. Having been raised in a cult for all of my childhood I'm very wary of any religion. I'm just interested in personal enrichment and buddhism seems to be pretty good for that so far. "

My reply : As for me, I just learn things more toward martial arts - including herbs, Iching etc and meditation is just one of the ways to practice martials arts - whether to relax and focus, or to heal myself (combination of Yin/Yang Principles and Meditations).

Cult? What cult is that? Can say I never actually met anyone (as in talking with them) who belong to a cult, but my country did see its share of cults and such for the past 30 years.

andy_d

I'd say that's completely compatable with Buddhist meditation and practice.

I'm sure you're aware that many forms of martial arts trace their origins back to the Shaolin Monastery in China. These are Buddhist monks, and their Kung Fu has often been described as "meditation in motion". In fact, I was surprised to learn from a Kung Fu practioner recently that the objective of Kung Fu is actually enlightenment.

Incidentally, the Shaolin Monks have a stage show which tours the world. If you get the chance, go and see it, it's well worth it (if only to ram home to yourself just how much latent potential we all have! )

Answerer

Well, this is of course, a true spiritual disciplined person will not only be fully aware and control of his mental functions but his body and speech at the same time as well. The idea that actions done by one's voice, body and mind should be well-controlled and act only for the benefits of other sentinel beings(including oneself) is indispensible in Buddhist teaching. The same principle applies if one wish to succeed in martial art trainings too.

monkey mind

Hey guys, I just found this link posted recently on zen-forum.com. I really like the teachings here, and it's relevant to the topic of this thread (zen meditation) so I thought I'd share it.

<a href="http://www2.gol.com/users/doubtboy/index.html" target="_blank">http://www2.gol.com/users/doubtboy/index.html</a>