Draygomb

The whole concept of communism is from the bible. Carl realizing that god didn't exist and not wanting to build a goverment on a lie simply modified the concepts in the bible for secular society.

Amen-Moses

When exactly would "late Rome" be in your book? Christianised Rome maybe? Or the Empire? They are very different beasts from the Republic.

Amen-Moses

Someone7

This and many other stupid quotes like show just how weak your rhetoric is.

Atheism is simply lack of belief in deities. It has no other implications whatsoever. Atheism isn’t inconsistent with deontological ethics, idealism, vitalism, etc. Atheism is not committed to materialism anymore than it is committed to vitalism, and I in fact know a few vitalist atheists.

That you try to associate what some Marxists have done with atheism in general is just as silly as associating Marxism with epistemological rationalism and trying to condemn it. Both are very wide concepts encompassing a large subgroup of other isms. It would be just as silly to condemn theism in general for the actions of any particular group of Jews, Christians, Muslims, polytheists, deists, pantheists, etc.

This is a pathetic strawman. You only make yourself look stupid by spouting this crap.

It all depends on the definitions being used. If you accept George H. Smith’s definitions, there is nothing inconsistent with being an atheist-agnostic, or even a theist-agnostic for that matter.

What is this nonsense supposed to even mean? Can I doubt that I am doubting?

You’re equivocating here. People who call themselves skeptics are generally not philosophical skeptics. They don’t “doubt everything”, they merely are skeptical of various claims. They doubt the claims not because they doubt everything, but because the claims are idiotic and/or not well supported.

Incorrect. Atheism says nothing about morality, only deities. Atheism is not inconsistent with the idea of necessarily existing moral rules. Nor does theism suggest there most necessarily be moral rules. Nothing is inconsistent with the idea of a creator deity and moral nihilism.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#scots" target="_blank">No True Scotsman</a>, eh FarSeeker?

No true Marxist would advocate killing anyone for any reason, so your arguments against Marxism are just starwmen.

FarSeeker, get your head out of C.S. Lewis’ ass. Divine Command theory was shown to be idiotic 2500 years ago, by none other than Plato himself. I suggest you read his dialogue <a href="http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html" target="_blank">Euthyphro</a>.

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Someone7 ]</p>

Jack the Bodiless

Farseeker:
How about Mein Kamf for starters?

There are MANY Christian remarks from Adolf Hitler. This subject has been debated before on these forums (e.g. <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000475" target="_blank">this thread</a>. I'm surprised that you seem unaware of Hitler's many claims to be a Christian, even if your religion won't let you accept them.

He wasn't exactly a typical Christian, and he came to despise the Church. But he was certainly raised as one, and he was certainly a theist.

According to Christian anti-Semites, the Jews "fell from grace" when they rejected Jesus. They've had 2000 years to change their minds, and Hitler was "doing the Lord's work" in annihilating those who did not. Anti-Semitism in Germany had been "Christian" for centuries: it was Martin Luther who wrote The Jews and their Lies.

phlebas

Wow, this is one friggin' old thread to have resurrected. Reading FarSeeker's latest posts, I'm tempted to toss it in the Lion's Den, but there is some other reasonable discussion in there. Off to Misc Discussions.

FarSeeker

Someone7 kctan
posted November 04, 2001 08:32 AM It is not a strawman if Atheists use it.


Hey, Atheism is as Atheism does. (apologies to Forest)
There is nothing the Marxists have done which contradicts Atheism. They use it in their reasoning to justify their actions. QED
Atheists use the same reasoning to call Christians "Nazis" or evil, and condemn Christianity in general. They use it for the same reason Hitler used anti-Semitism: to blame all of society's troubles on one group of people, marginalize them, and grab for power once the marginalized group is forced out.

Finally, are you claiming that no Atheist has condemned theism for the actions of those groups? Have you lost contact with reality?

I'm sure you use only the definitions that makes Atheists look like Angels of Light.

You don't question your own methods or dogma.

Atheism says nothing about morality. Except that if there isn't a deity, there are no deity set rules.
Therefore mankind can set its own. Each individual Atheist may believe that their choices are THE "necessarily existing moral rules," but they are only that individuals. Thus their forcing their beliefs on others is just as wrong as they claim Christians doing so. So an Atheist claiming that the mass killings of Lenin, purges of Stalin, civil rights abuses of all sorts of Atheists, the KAL007 shoot down, Tiananmen Square Massacre, Toy-bombs in Afghanistan, or the Nazi Holocaust etc. were wrong would just be them forcing their beliefs on others.

So Atheism is inconsistent with the idea of necessarily existing moral rules.
Someone else suggested that some Atheists believe in a set of morals woven into the fabric of space. This would require the non-sentient universe to have "known" of our future existence at the very beginning of the universe before even atoms formed. An unsupported suggestion, but understandable considering what Atheists have fallen to.

Let's see, you are accusing me of changing the definition of Christian after the fact. Sorry, that doesn't fit the facts; I didn't write the Bible yesterday.

If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master.
Deuteronomy 23:14-16

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Ephesians 6:8-10

The slave owners of modern times did not follow these rules. They ignored the commandment regarding the "Year of Jubilee" when all slaves were to be set free.

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 10:5-6

Jesus was a Jew, concerned for the Jews, therefore Christian cannot hate Jews.

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
Matt 10:14-15

"And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."
Luke 9:52-56

Even those who reject Jesus are not to be harmed. To bad Atheists don't hold this belief.

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Matt 22:36-40
Actutally, SO7, I've only read "The Screwtape Letters." I was referencing the Bible. You should read it with that fabled "freethinking" mind of yours someday. But considering your childish propensity for what is colloquially know as a "potty mouth," I just don't see that happening.

Monkeybot

I too am surprised to see this thread resurrected... off to Misc. Religion Discussions.