Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ju'iblex · 01-30-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

his saying he felt God was in control is a harmless statement in and of itself.

i suppose. i guess that makes this sentence inherently harmless as well:

"I hate Jews and they deserve to die, Hitler did the right thing"

<please note, that sentence does not represent my feelings at all on the subject.> No sentence is inherently harmless. Thats the beauty of language, it always affects someone somewhere.

Amie · 01-30-2003, 12:22 PM

Hi Azathoth

Quote:

Originally posted by Azathoth
If you don't always understand why things happen the way they do,then why attribute the hand of God to it?Why,exactly,do you think that things happen for reasons?

Well I believe in god so I believe that he has a hand in our lives. I don't always understand why things happen the way they do but I feel that ultimately I will, its just my personal belief though.
I just feel that things happen for reasons, I believe that certain people are brought into our lives for specific purposes...

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As far as my statement about God being insane,wouldn't that be as good an explanation to you,about why things happen,if you believe in a God?

I understand that would be your explanation and yes your opinion is as good as mine. Mine is no better, no worse, just different.

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Would,possibly a better explanation be,that God has no part in saving or killing people?It does avoid quite a bit of rationalizing.

I don't think that would be a "better" explanation, not at all. Just a different perspective.

Hi ju'iblex
apples. oranges

ju'iblex · 01-30-2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie

Hi ju'iblex
apples. oranges

no apples or oranges actually. just words. and no matter the sentence it will always have an impact, small or great, individual or societal. That was my point.

Amie · 01-30-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ju'iblex
no apples or oranges actually. just words. and no matter the sentence it will always have an impact, small or great, individual or societal. That was my point.

Hi ju'iblex
I understand what you are saying here, it just did not seem like a fair comparison since one statement involved hate and people deserving to die. I can understand how that would be harmful, however someone saying "I believe God is in control" seems to be pretty harmless. I agree though words will always have an impact on someone...

Wyz_sub10 · 01-30-2003, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
Hi Wyz
I disagree to an extent since any time in my life I felt that God helped me out, I just felt he guided me. Obviously the things that have happened in my life I can thank many people for, but I see nothing wrong with be thankful to God for them as well. I feel that sometimes God puts people in our lives at the moments we need them the most.

Thanking god for nice weather or good friends seem harmless enough, I agree. What happens when floods come or your friends betray you?

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Guilt, That would be a horrible way to live.

Indeed. But it's an integral part of religion.

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I agree that people need to be accountabe but I see nothing wrong with someone feeling that God was in control over a situation on their lives.

If god's in control, then they have relinquished a portion of responsibility or accountibility. Often it is a significant portion.

Infinity Lover · 01-30-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
That may be true, Amie, but what I think most of the atheists here will say is that there is harm in the fact that his statement further promotes belief in theism. I think many here see the belief in theism as harmful, i.e. relinquishing personal responsibility, forgoing logic and reason, impeding scientific progress, etc. This is what some see as the dangers of theism. Taken in that context, you can see why some atheists would be bothered by the man saying that God helped him out, when, in fact, there is no evidence to suggest that a god did help him out in any way, as everything described could have happened without the influence of any supernatural forces.

People who are that prone to convert, will see reason to do so wherever they please, they'll be looking for 'signs' and neither you nor I could stop that, I hope you'd agree. The article featured in the o.p. would hardly make a difference there.

I'm with Amie, to that extend that people here are drawn to the spectacular story, and subsequently jump on the bandwagon of making a mountain out of a mollhill, their fanatisism further fuelled by having Amie in the thread to disagree with, since she has the audacity to suggest we might be making way too big a fuss over this. It's busting chops time people!!

Don't forget the guy may just as well interpret "God's intervention" as being given a seccond chance, thus leading him to drive more safely and wear a seatbelt from now on. God's watching after all. In that light the argument of irresponsiblity raised by many doesn't have to nessecarily apply at all.

Azathoth · 01-30-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
Hi Azathoth

Well I believe in god so I believe that he has a hand in our lives. I don't always understand why things happen the way they do but I feel that ultimately I will, its just my personal belief though.
I just feel that things happen for reasons, I believe that certain people are brought into our lives for specific purposes...
I understand that would be your explanation and yes your opinion is as good as mine. Mine is no better, no worse, just different.
I don't think that would be a "better" explanation, not at all. Just a different perspective.

It's not really a case of me believing one thing,and you another.

From all indications,the things that happen in the world,seem to be completely random.There does not appear to be any guiding force behind it.

Now,you believe that a supernatural creature saved this person,or that it has a hand in saving,or killing,people,but your belief has no evidence to back it up.

On the other hand,I would be perfectly justified in saying that accidents have no guiding force behind them,because that's the way it appears to be.

If you can show proof of a supernatural being influencing the outcome of these events,I would welcome you to do so,because,at the moment,it really looks like random chance.

Perhaps you're seeing something that isn't there to be seen?

Amie · 01-30-2003, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Azathoth
It's not really a case of me believing one thing,and you another.

Ultimately it comes down to what each of us believe.

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Now,you believe that a supernatural creature saved this person,or that it has a hand in saving,or killing,people,but your belief has no evidence to back it up.

If I had evidence it wouldn't be called faith

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If you can show proof of a supernatural being influencing the outcome of these events,I would welcome you to do so,because,at the moment,it really looks like random chance.

If I had proof Azathoth surely you would be the first one to know

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Perhaps you're seeing something that isn't there to be seen?

Perhaps, however I don't believe thats the case.
Some people will see God in a tomato while others just see seeds...

Infinity Lover · 01-30-2003, 01:10 PM

Lieve schat,

If you need a little break in between answering posts, I've got your mocca frapochino with complimentary a backrub right here.

Amie · 01-30-2003, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
Thanking god for nice weather or good friends seem harmless enough, I agree. What happens when floods come or your friends betray you?

Stuff happens. Ultimately I would learn from it and move on...

Quote:

If god's in control, then they have relinquished a portion of responsibility or accountibility. Often it is a significant portion.

I am accountable for myself, I cant just go throw myself off an overpass in hopes that God will save me though.

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01-30-2003, 01:10 PM	#59
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	Lieve schat, If you need a little break in between answering posts, I've got your mocca frapochino with complimentary a backrub right here.

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