Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ProNihil · 07-04-2003, 08:09 AM

After perusing the various threads related to teens and residential treatment facilities, I got to thinking about what it is that would be inherently wrong with a boot camp type scenareo for troubled youth.

Now, I am assuming that the general concensus is that they are not good because the kids are treated in some inhumane way, thus violating their rights as people. I am sure that this does happen in some places. What I am not sure about is the notion that we should rid ourselves of the philosophy of boot camp style treatment alltogether.

The way I am looking at it is like this...
Life can be very hard, and it can be cruel. All of us know this, and the only way I can think of to prepare people for this is to train them. Generally, or even preferably, this training would come from loving parents who set an example for their children and expect them to follow it. Alas, this is not always the case. Stupid people breed, and naturally their offspring aquire the traits that they themselves possess. This is unfortunate, but not the end of the road.

Some of these kids would do well in a "montesorri" (sp?) type setting, where their naturally inhereited tendencies will take shape and lead them into productive lives with little need for supervision. Others will need more structure and discipline, even to survive at the lowest common denominator of what is considered "right" or "socially acceptable" living for a person in todays society. So...

What is inherently wrong with military school type settings in which a child is forced to actually have some success at something rather than the continual failure that only reinforces their already negative self-perceptions? What if a child was forced into a leadership position (i.e. they are now the leader of their "squad" or some such thing) and they actually learned through trial and error, failure and success, what it takes to actually "be" a leader? Would this be hard for them? YES! Would it be uncomfortable for them? YES! But the end result (hopefully), would be a person who knows what they can accomplish, and doesn't engage in stupid or self-destructive behaviors. Someone who respects themselves because they have been shown that they are respectable. They can contribute something to the betterment of society, and, if lacking that, at least their immediate circle of influence.

I guess that I am of the opinion that people are made, not born. And that perhaps for some of these kids, the most loving thing we could teach them is that they are infinetly stronger and more powerful than they can imagine. They can do great things if only they would "choose" to. I think they could benefiet from learning how to choose, as hard as that may be. There is a saying that goes- "success breeds success" I think that once alot of these kids learned that they could do things they never dreamed possible, that for the majority of them there would be no turning back.

BTW- The kind of boot camps I am referring to here are not the kind where kids are physically hurt in order to gain compliance. This is not to say that scrubbing floors with a toothbrush is being "hurt" either though!

contracycle · 07-04-2003, 08:16 AM

K. In the first instance, I don;t think we should establish how we think life Is and "programme" our kids for it. It is healthier for them to learn to learn, and to learn to think. I donlt think this is going to hapen in the military-style boot camp.

Secondly, I want to pick up on the idea that the kids are going to be exposed to the positive rewards of success. Now while this may not apply to kiddie boot camps, it seems to me th epeople I've seen go through army training, which is quite a lot, report that it is very abusive and often makes you fail - partly to reinforce your powerlessness, partly to reinforce a collegiate identity among the cohort.

Third, if you've been reading Starship Troopers lately, I have a nasty surprise in store.

Loren Pechtel · 07-04-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by ProNihil
Now, I am assuming that the general concensus is that they are not good because the kids are treated in some inhumane way, thus violating their rights as people. I am sure that this does happen in some places. What I am not sure about is the notion that we should rid ourselves of the philosophy of boot camp style treatment alltogether.

Some places?! Try virtually all of them. There aren't many programs of that type left in the US--because they have been destroyed by lawsuits.

That's why the one under discussion isn't in the US--to avoid liability!

melinie007 · 07-04-2003, 09:39 AM

The major problem I have with your argument is how do we know/define what is 'good' for people? The point of boot camps is to correct 'naughty' kids. I think they enforce a negative image of youth - as a danger to themselves and society who cannot understand the 'absoloute' rightness of what they are being told so need correction. A secoundary problem is that correction can come by making them do things not because they want to but because they have to.

Quote:

Life can be very hard, and it can be cruel. All of us know this, and the only way I can think of to prepare people for this is to train them. Generally, or even preferably, this training would come from loving parents who set an example for their children and expect them to follow it

I don't think you prepare people for dealing with a hard cruel life by making decisions for them. Even the most simple decisions in a boot camp - when to get out of bed - are made for them.

Loving parents should set an example for their children and guide them morally - I think we all agree to that. HOWEVER, I think it is a mistake to think that loving parents moral views are infallible - and that we should morally commend boot camps to enforce them.

Quote:

What is inherently wrong with military school type settings in which a child is forced to actually have some success at something rather than the continual failure that only reinforces their already negative self-perceptions?

Exactly that - they are being forced to have success. In Australia, I compare how products from some elite private schools and some kids from state schools have handled university. In my ancedotal experience, these coddled private school kids fail - because the school has been putting a pen in the hand and whispering in their ear and DRIVING them to succeed. They get in the real world and have no drive for success. Some state school kids who worked hard at their schools to get their results, have learnt to value success (through emphasis by parents/teachers/etc) and have forced themselves to work.

I can see your argument that being encouraged to some intial success my encourage a desire for them to eventual do it themselves. But I think it also removes responsiblity from their shoulders to somebody elses. I also wonder what 'continual failure' it is you refer. Kids are sent to these boot camps, according to the otherthread, for being 'immature'.

My opinion would be different if we were talking about bootcamps for children charged with a criminal offence by a court of law. Certainly a bootcamp may be better then prision. Certainly socieital consensus can tell us kids are 'naughty', and a well run camp for a short period can help. I just don't see what removing the ability to make a choice from a child, just because the parent disagrees with the choice, is a way to encourage success later in life.

I watched Dr Phil today (too much time on my hands?) after having read the other thread - and related links etc - on this last night. This woman had a 15 year old son who was smoking pot once a month - and had starting drug testing him at home so he had stopped. Dr Phil recommended she send the son away. The son, he assured her, 'didn't get a vote' in this because he was obviously incapable of making decisions - the kid was a bit fucking quiet, but it was found out by Dr Phil that he was incapable of making decisons because A He Knew his mum wanted him to stop B he knew pot wouldn't help him get a job, succeed etc, and C. He wanted to continue smoking pot recreationally. In my opinion this mother should not have the option to send this son to a boot camp where his life choice is taken away. (it's not like the show linked it to falling grades or ANYTHING). If the state constrains marijwana useage for whatever historical/public health reasons then so be it - breaking the law he could be charged - but I don't think his sentance for possessing a couple of jays should be boot camp either.

If these private programs were freely avaliable how many kids (under 18 year olders) would be sent for being disrespectful, swearing, being 'immature', one-off or occasional illegal drug useage, non-abusive/non-addictive ocassional use of drugs legal for adults, differing moral views, or differing (non destructive) views on sex.

Parents may make there kids lives hell over these issues - sometimes I have reseverations over this but it is, mostly, there 'right'. I just don't think official programs should be run to basically non-violently brainwash 'discipline' into children... ie. the 'right' 'absolute' life choices.

Quote:

They can do great things if only they would "choose" to. I think they could benefiet from learning how to choose, as hard as that may be

Choose is in inverted commas, I am afraid, for a reason. The point is that in most of these programs the kids don't get a chocie. They don't get a choice whether or not. They don't get a choice once there if they can make the start of the days activities even if they grab an extra 10 minutes sleep.... Maybe fair enough, but compared with the lack of any choice whatsoever I don't think we can say they are learning how to choose.... what we are really saying is teaching them to think as X (camp) thinks...

Sorry, This was a bit of a rant....

jman0904 · 07-04-2003, 09:42 AM

I think Anthony Burgess had some really good ideas in his book. Maybe the government should look in on it some more.

(Kidding folks. Just kidding)

... · 07-05-2003, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jman0904
I think Anthony Burgess had some really good ideas in his book. Maybe the government should look in on it some more.

(Kidding folks. Just kidding)

Don't even kid that way.

The problem with teen boot camp is that it teaches kids to be violent and cruel. Children learn what they live. Granted, discipline is needed, but it needs to be done with a loving hand.

If I ran such a camp, it'd be run according to the motto "Optimas Est Veritas" (Best is Truth, also Best is Honesty). A simple rule book would be established, and the kids would be drilled in Honor, Civility, and Duty. They'd be rewarded for showing a good work ethic, and punished for slacking. I often wish I had been raised in that enviornment.

07-04-2003, 08:09 AM	#1
ProNihil Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 228	So what's wrong with teen boot camp? After perusing the various threads related to teens and residential treatment facilities, I got to thinking about what it is that would be inherently wrong with a boot camp type scenareo for troubled youth. Now, I am assuming that the general concensus is that they are not good because the kids are treated in some inhumane way, thus violating their rights as people. I am sure that this does happen in some places. What I am not sure about is the notion that we should rid ourselves of the philosophy of boot camp style treatment alltogether. The way I am looking at it is like this... Life can be very hard, and it can be cruel. All of us know this, and the only way I can think of to prepare people for this is to train them. Generally, or even preferably, this training would come from loving parents who set an example for their children and expect them to follow it. Alas, this is not always the case. Stupid people breed, and naturally their offspring aquire the traits that they themselves possess. This is unfortunate, but not the end of the road. Some of these kids would do well in a "montesorri" (sp?) type setting, where their naturally inhereited tendencies will take shape and lead them into productive lives with little need for supervision. Others will need more structure and discipline, even to survive at the lowest common denominator of what is considered "right" or "socially acceptable" living for a person in todays society. So... What is inherently wrong with military school type settings in which a child is forced to actually have some success at something rather than the continual failure that only reinforces their already negative self-perceptions? What if a child was forced into a leadership position (i.e. they are now the leader of their "squad" or some such thing) and they actually learned through trial and error, failure and success, what it takes to actually "be" a leader? Would this be hard for them? YES! Would it be uncomfortable for them? YES! But the end result (hopefully), would be a person who knows what they can accomplish, and doesn't engage in stupid or self-destructive behaviors. Someone who respects themselves because they have been shown that they are respectable. They can contribute something to the betterment of society, and, if lacking that, at least their immediate circle of influence. I guess that I am of the opinion that people are made, not born. And that perhaps for some of these kids, the most loving thing we could teach them is that they are infinetly stronger and more powerful than they can imagine. They can do great things if only they would "choose" to. I think they could benefiet from learning how to choose, as hard as that may be. There is a saying that goes- "success breeds success" I think that once alot of these kids learned that they could do things they never dreamed possible, that for the majority of them there would be no turning back. BTW- The kind of boot camps I am referring to here are not the kind where kids are physically hurt in order to gain compliance. This is not to say that scrubbing floors with a toothbrush is being "hurt" either though!

07-04-2003, 09:12 AM	#3
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Re: So what's wrong with teen boot camp? Originally posted by ProNihil Now, I am assuming that the general concensus is that they are not good because the kids are treated in some inhumane way, thus violating their rights as people. I am sure that this does happen in some places. What I am not sure about is the notion that we should rid ourselves of the philosophy of boot camp style treatment alltogether. Some places?! Try virtually all of them. There aren't many programs of that type left in the US--because they have been destroyed by lawsuits. That's why the one under discussion isn't in the US--to avoid liability!

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07-04-2003, 08:16 AM	#2
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	K. In the first instance, I don;t think we should establish how we think life Is and "programme" our kids for it. It is healthier for them to learn to learn, and to learn to think. I donlt think this is going to hapen in the military-style boot camp. Secondly, I want to pick up on the idea that the kids are going to be exposed to the positive rewards of success. Now while this may not apply to kiddie boot camps, it seems to me th epeople I've seen go through army training, which is quite a lot, report that it is very abusive and often makes you fail - partly to reinforce your powerlessness, partly to reinforce a collegiate identity among the cohort. Third, if you've been reading Starship Troopers lately, I have a nasty surprise in store.

07-04-2003, 09:42 AM	#5
jman0904 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Oregon, the new Least Religious State in America Posts: 453	I think Anthony Burgess had some really good ideas in his book. Maybe the government should look in on it some more. (Kidding folks. Just kidding)

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