Freethought & Rationalism Archive

elwoodblues · 04-26-2003, 04:41 PM

Story's just breaking...

UK Telegraph

Quote:

Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terrorist network and Saddam Hussein's regime.
Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al-Qa'eda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998.

Not really confirmed yet, so take it with a hunk of salt.

Mr. Superbad · 04-26-2003, 05:04 PM

This is a very suspicious story. I would think that this place would have been one of the first places cleaned out by coalition forces, and telegraph workers just wandered in and found these documents? Also, I believe this newspaper is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

Besides that, it only proves that Saddam wanted to work with Al Qaeda, not that he actually did.

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-26-2003, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Not really confirmed yet, so take it with a hunk of salt

Yes, well, considering their history and that of the US, I would say a tremendously large hunk of salt.

This is from an article by Seymour M. Hersh of The New Yorker (March 31, 2003; archived with permission by Globalpolicy.org) that I had posted in another thread, regarding U.S. and British policy in general with regard to Iraq (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Forged documents and false accusations have been an element in U.S. and British policy toward Iraq at least since the fall of 1997, after an impasse over U.N. inspections. Then as now, the Security Council was divided, with the French, the Russians, and the Chinese telling the United States and the United Kingdom that they were being too tough on the Iraqis. President Bill Clinton, weakened by the impeachment proceedings, hinted of renewed bombing, but, then as now, the British and the Americans were losing the battle for international public opinion. A former Clinton Administration official told me that London had resorted to, among other things, spreading false information about Iraq. The British propaganda program�part of its Information Operations, or I/Ops�was known to a few senior officials in Washington. �I knew that was going on,� the former Clinton Administration official said of the British efforts. �We were getting ready for action in Iraq, and we wanted the Brits to prepare.�

Over the next year, a former American intelligence officer told me, at least one member of the U.N. inspection team who supported the American and British position arranged for dozens of unverified and unverifiable intelligence reports and tips�data known as inactionable intelligence�to be funnelled to MI6 operatives and quietly passed along to newspapers in London and elsewhere. �It was intelligence that was crap, and that we couldn�t move on, but the Brits wanted to plant stories in England and around the world,� the former officer said. There was a series of clandestine meetings with MI6, at which documents were provided, as well as quiet meetings, usually at safe houses in the Washington area. The British propaganda scheme eventually became known to some members of the U.N. inspection team. �I knew a bit,� one official still on duty at U.N. headquarters acknowledged last week, �but I was never officially told about it.�

...

On March 14th, Senator Jay Rockefeller, of West Virginia, the senior Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, formally asked Robert Mueller, the F.B.I. director, to investigate the forged documents. Rockefeller had voted for the resolution authorizing force last fall. Now he wrote to Mueller, �There is a possibility that the fabrication of these documents may be part of a larger deception campaign aimed at manipulating public opinion and foreign policy regarding Iraq.�

A very large grain indeed.

hezekiah jones · 04-26-2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Superbad
Also, I believe this newspaper is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

The Torygraph is owned by Conrad "Tubby" Black. The Dirty Digger owns the Times, which, according to Drudge, is set to publish a story alleging the French passed info gained from U.S. diplomats to Saddam. Should be good.

Farren · 04-26-2003, 06:06 PM

In a related article the telegraph claims to have retrieved documents from the same source, detailing the following:

Moscow provides list of hitmen to Iraq:

Quote:

Moscow also provided Saddam with lists of assassins available for "hits" in the West and details of arms deals to neighbouring countries

Russia passed on private communications between Blair and Italian PM Berlesconi:

Quote:

In the letter, an Iraqi intelligence official explains that a Russian colleague had passed him details of a private conversation between Mr Blair and Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, at a meeting in Rome.

(By implication) Russia "knew" of WMDs being developed:

Quote:

The Russians warned Baghdad that if it refused to comply with the United Nations then that would give the United States "a cause to destroy any nuclear weapons".

Along with the allegations of proof of a relationship between Saddams regime and Osama bin Laden.

The articles are dated 13/04/2003. Thats 2 weeks ago. No other news sources appear to have picked them up. They do not appear to have been picked up and trumpeted by even the people who could best use them to vindicate their decisions with regard to Iraq,

Unlike a similar article in the Guardian regarding the US spying on security council members , where the full text of the memorandum is provided at the outset, a fragment of a document is provided by the telegraph to validate the Osama claim, and the claims regarding Russia are not substantiated at all.

This stinks like dead fish. Niger uranium deals, Hitler diaries anyone? Hasn't the US got an Iraqi scientist who's linked Saddam to Osama and knows where traces of recently destroyed WMDs can be found - that they won't let anyone interview and who's claims they won't elaborate on.

Its becoming impossible to believe theres not some kind of active disinformation campaign being waged here.

sir drinks-a-lot · 04-26-2003, 06:11 PM

Hey Koy - that proof that you have showing that Iraq and Al Qaida have nothing to do with each other might come in handy about now.

FoE · 04-26-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones

The Torygraph is owned by Conrad "Tubby" Black.

Damn am i happy we got rid of that guy. Enjoy him, English suckers!

Optional · 04-26-2003, 10:59 PM

Yeh, I was thinking about this story today.

From what I've heard, what is detailed is preparations for a meeting 'tween iraq and al qa'eda in 1998... Nothing more.

I have heard before that evidence suggested that some years ago some preliminary talks were set up between iraq and al qa'eda, but those talks foundered due to mutual distrust. Could this meeting be part of that?

Whatever, it wouldn't surprise me that al qa'eda wanted to set up a meeting with iraq. They're always looking for weapons and funding, and since saddam had cause to be pissed at america, there was reason to believe he might want to help out the enemy of his enemy. The best part would be that any money donated would go into general operations (which include operations against iraq) and any weapons donated could easily be used in part against iraq... Thus erasing the idealogical problems inherant in dealing with saddam in the first place. Take his money, take his weapons, then use em against him.

It also wouldn't surprise me that iraq would be willing to at least hear the al qa'eda folks out. Who knows, they might be offering something rather than begging something... BUT, iraq could quite easily make the same analysis I just did, and I see no real way iraq could have guaranteed that any money or weapons donated would NOT be used against iraq... After all, enemy of my enemy or no, these are the same people that have quite publicly called for the destruction of the ba'ath party in iraq and the death of saddam.

So... Even if the documents are genuine, unless there is more to them than has been reported, I don't think they actually establish anything like the kind of link that might have justified military action.

-me

Farren · 04-27-2003, 07:07 AM

Considering this was pre-9/11 and the CIA more willing to do more than just "hear the guy out" (I don't think he was even on America's Most Wanted List yet), it would also be supremely spurious and misleading to use this as evidence of the USs enemires collaborating to Destroy the Free World. But conservatives on both sides of the Atlantic are clutching at straws right now.

S2Focus · 04-27-2003, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sir drinks-a-lot
Hey Koy - that proof that you have showing that Iraq and Al Qaida have nothing to do with each other might come in handy about now.

Also, concrete proof that sir drinks-a-lot and Al Qaida have nothing to do with each other would come in handy right now.

If such proof is not immediately forthcoming, authorities should arrest sir drinks-a-lot and ship him off to camp X-ray.

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04-26-2003, 05:04 PM	#2
Mr. Superbad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Well fortified mountain bunker Posts: 3,567	This is a very suspicious story. I would think that this place would have been one of the first places cleaned out by coalition forces, and telegraph workers just wandered in and found these documents? Also, I believe this newspaper is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Besides that, it only proves that Saddam wanted to work with Al Qaeda, not that he actually did.

04-26-2003, 05:22 PM	#4
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Mr. Superbad Also, I believe this newspaper is owned by Rupert Murdoch. The Torygraph is owned by Conrad "Tubby" Black. The Dirty Digger owns the Times, which, according to Drudge, is set to publish a story alleging the French passed info gained from U.S. diplomats to Saddam. Should be good.

04-26-2003, 06:11 PM	#6
sir drinks-a-lot Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 665	Hey Koy - that proof that you have showing that Iraq and Al Qaida have nothing to do with each other might come in handy about now.

04-26-2003, 10:59 PM	#8
Optional Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 1,049	Yeh, I was thinking about this story today. From what I've heard, what is detailed is preparations for a meeting 'tween iraq and al qa'eda in 1998... Nothing more. I have heard before that evidence suggested that some years ago some preliminary talks were set up between iraq and al qa'eda, but those talks foundered due to mutual distrust. Could this meeting be part of that? Whatever, it wouldn't surprise me that al qa'eda wanted to set up a meeting with iraq. They're always looking for weapons and funding, and since saddam had cause to be pissed at america, there was reason to believe he might want to help out the enemy of his enemy. The best part would be that any money donated would go into general operations (which include operations against iraq) and any weapons donated could easily be used in part against iraq... Thus erasing the idealogical problems inherant in dealing with saddam in the first place. Take his money, take his weapons, then use em against him. It also wouldn't surprise me that iraq would be willing to at least hear the al qa'eda folks out. Who knows, they might be offering something rather than begging something... BUT, iraq could quite easily make the same analysis I just did, and I see no real way iraq could have guaranteed that any money or weapons donated would NOT be used against iraq... After all, enemy of my enemy or no, these are the same people that have quite publicly called for the destruction of the ba'ath party in iraq and the death of saddam. So... Even if the documents are genuine, unless there is more to them than has been reported, I don't think they actually establish anything like the kind of link that might have justified military action. -me

04-27-2003, 07:07 AM	#9
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	Considering this was pre-9/11 and the CIA more willing to do more than just "hear the guy out" (I don't think he was even on America's Most Wanted List yet), it would also be supremely spurious and misleading to use this as evidence of the USs enemires collaborating to Destroy the Free World. But conservatives on both sides of the Atlantic are clutching at straws right now.

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