alek0

If homeopathic "remedies" are just water, why would you need any studies on the safety?

Granted, there are alternative treatments which are completely bogus, ineffective and not safe (I think I've given the example of "oxidation therapy"). But there are ineffective and harmful practices in conventional medicine as well, which persist in spite of the evidence. Take for example episiotomies. Promoted to "prevent tearing" while majority of studies show that third and fourth degree tears are more likely with episiotomy. Very scientific, indeed.

Both for conventional and alternative treatments it is one's own responsibility to choose treatment which would give most benefit and/or least harm. On which aspect (more benefit vs. less harm) one will put more priority is personal preference. I don't see what is wrong with that.

Secular Pinoy

Sigh, more of Corwinian Pseudoscience. I thought you got your act together after the beating you had in the Gravity=Energy thread.

Corwin

Gurdy.... if you're just going to distort my agruments do us both a favor and don't bother replying.

Tron... we have a slight misunderstanding here. I never mentioned vaccines. I was talking about innoculations. They aren't the same thing. Slight miscommunication here.

And anybody that thinks 'tens of billions of dollars' are being poured into alternative therapy research is crazy. That's part of the problem. Anything that isn't 'traditional' medical research (IE pills and injections and patentable processes) can't get funding. That one little label is enough that nobody listens to you even when you're right.

Synaesthesia

Corwin, if proponents of alternative therapies really want to be taken seriously they have to start producing therapies that work. There is no shortage of profit my man, that I assure you.

(As it happens my dad does some design for an Aromatherapy company. The markups on that snake oil would turn a Methamphetamine dealer green with envy.)

From <a href="http://www.journalclub.org/vol2/a68.html" target="_blank">http://www.journalclub.org/vol2/a68.html</a>

"According to the more conservative method, total expenditure on alternative medicine professional services in the United States was 21.2 billion dollars in 1997, compared with 14.6 billion dollars in 1990

Out-of-pocket expenses for alternative medicine include expenses for professional services not covered by insurance plus expenses for products such as vitamins, herbal medicines, commercial diets and books, classes and equipment. In 1997, using a conservative estimate, total out-of-pocket expenses for alternative medicine in the United States came to 27 billion dollars. This should be compared to estimated 1997 out-of-pocket expenses for all physician services of 29.3 billion dollars and out-of-pocket payments for hospitalization of 9.1 billion dollars."

For those who weren't paying attention: the amount of money spent on alternative therapies rivals that spent on mainstream medicine.

21.2 billion. Dollars.

Vorkosigan

Here in Taiwan Chinese medicine is accepted to a certain extent by the government, which pays for some treatments. I cannot ethically recommend it, most of it is untested and much of it simply silly. However, Chinese medicine stores are great places to buy cheap spices in bulk.

Vorkosigan

MrDarwin

In all fairness, "alternative medicine" and "homeopathy" are not synonymous. The latter is a subset of the much larger former. Those on both sides of this argument would do well to recognize the distinction.

liquid

Corwin, from looking a this thread, it does appear that some of your criticisms of people's manner are valid. However, it is also quite apparent that you are using that as an diversion for not responding to any of the requests asking you to post any sort of empirical evidence whatsoever. You have to wonder if there is a perfectly understandable reason why people get irritated if you refuse to back up your points, and to some extent you bring it upon yourself.

If you do attempt to post some evidence, then I at least will try to be pleasant to you!

[Edited because it sounded meaner than I meant it to be]

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: liquid ]</p>

Corwin

I've been backing up my points repeatedly. I do, however, refuse to back up points I didn't make in the first place. (One thing you'll find out, liquid, is that this forum isn't a great place for rational ideas that are a bit outside the mainstream... they quickly tend to get bent into something completely unrecognizable by a few people who can't seem to have a reasonable argument with someone... they have to distort what's said to make the person look like a raving lunatic.)

Corona688

Corwin, one more time...

What's the difference between alternative therapy, and mainstream therapy?

Mainstream therapy is held to much higher standards.

That's it.

You say mainstream therapy's restricted to pills, injections, yada yada. You obviously haven't thought this thru. Where did they GET - or at least discover - the active ingredients for these?

Penicillin - mold
Asprin - A tree
Vancomycin - Mushroom

And on, and on, and on. In the majority fo cases, they get their chemicals the same place quacks do - nature. But, instead of leaving it at just that, they purify it, test it, and measure effects and side-effects. Quacks might have access to SOME chemicals that work, but they haven't really measured the effects and/or side-effects.

And since their chemicals aren't pure, they're likely to have alot more side effects. And they 'prescribe' them anyway. That's scary.

And I haven't seen you back up your points, Corwin. When pressed to prove that homeopathy works, you've ducked and weaved into rants against the Evil Conventional Medicine Conspiracy(tm), potential medication for Tourette's Syndrome, and demanding that WE provide evidence for YOUR assertions.

Get to the effing point. Put your mouth where your money is.

Please provide evidence that homeopathy - the traditional kind with dilutions - works for ANYTHING.

Again, which diluted homeopathic remedies do this? You are the one making these assertions. The burden of proof is upon you.

If this isn't homeopathy as you know it, say it plain out; 'dilutions don't work, I meant something else' would get the point across quite clearly. Somehow I doubt you're going to, tho.

Exactly. the Evil Mainstream Medicine Conspiracy(tm) is held to higher standards of research and proof of efficacy. What could you possibly object to in that?

Evil Mainstream Medicine(tm) does. Changes so fast, there's trouble keeping up. Homeopathy hasn't changed in, what, centuries?

Perhaps they aren't homeopaths as defined by their practices, then?

As soon as you admit that Evil Mainstream Medicine(tm) advances as well.

It has been mathematically shown many times, that at the standard dilution levels used, there is PHYSICALLY NOTHING LEFT of the 'active ingredients', whether they were active in the first place or not. Not a single molecule. Get over it.

The fact is, homeopath's don't use pure substances nearly as much as the Evil Mainstream Medicine Conspiracy(tm) does. Since naturopaths don't bother to do real research and squirrel out the actual active ingredients - if there ARE any - they are MORE likely to have side effects. I'll admit, tho, a solution that does nothing is not likely to have side effects.

Back up this baseless assertion. You said it, you must have the evidence, righty-right?

You got the research on that, or just talking outta your ass?

OK, maybye you ARE talking out of your ass. You just love making youself the downtrodden underdog, don't you?

We have higher standards of evidence than you do. Yes, I have read your links. They link to news sites and anecdotal evidence. This does not qualify as research. Real research is done in journals, and is peer-reviewed to ensure that it isn't total bullshit.

Put up or shut up; we're getting tired of this.

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Corona688 ]</p>

Corwin

Corona... if mainstream researchers would bother to look, they'd find out what a lot of people have known for a long time. Unfortunatly there's a strong current of 'if we don't already know it it's crazy' and NOBODY BOTHERS LOOKING.

Try promoting something 'alternative' sometime.

Spend some time being dismissed out of hand. Let's see how long you remain calm. I'd bet probably not as long as a lot of people in the alt community have.