Yahzi

Your insensitivity speaks for itself.

Faced with the option that other people might be in truly devestating pain, you simply shrug and deny it.

Any argument can be won if you simply ignore the facts you don't like.

Yahzi

You are merely arguing that pregnancy is a morally necessary result of sex. But you have no basis to argue this. Breaking your leg is a logically possible result of skiing, but that does not mean that the doctor can refuse to treat you with all the medicine at his command because you accepted the risk of skiing.

You are simply making a special case for sex, and applying a principle to sex that you do not apply in any other case.

This is called hypocrisy, and removes your arguments from any serious consideration.

0

I was placed in a mental hospital because I was locked in a bathroom and trying to drink bathroom cleaner to kill myself in Sept. 2001. I lost my mind.
My wrists have scars on them from hacking at them with knives. I attempted suicide several times. I have journals filled with irrational thoughts and crazed rants. I didn't want to be touched. I also took showers so hot that I had burns on my back and arms that had to be treated by nurses while I was in a partial-hospitalization program several months after I was released from the hospital. I got to the point where I took several showers/baths a day because I couldn't get clean. I felt dirty and like I was a whore. I would have flashbacks of the rape during sex that would cause me to start screaming and tearing at my hair.
I have been in and out of therapy ever since. Now imagine what this is like for my husband, who married me knowing that I had been raped and abused, but then had to spend our first year together trying to keep me alive. Wrestling pill bottles out of my hands. Restraining me so he could take knives away from me. Not sleeping at night because I might have hurled myself down the stairs.

So what I can say is that you don't know me, nor do you know the women I met, some of whom are maimed for life by their rapists. I wasn't blowing smoke when I wrote that post. I wrote that post because I lived through it myself.

Now we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can tell you that I will not carry a rapist's baby to term. You can say that it is wrong. You may even condemn me for it. But until you have walked in my shoes, I don't give a damn. The dead tell no tales, only the living have to deal with the past every day they live.

My two cents,
Tangie

spicy

Lucky for you (maybe) that your parents chose to have sex instead of skiing during the time you were conceived, since you seem to view the two activities as equivalent. :Cheeky: Yes I am making a special case for sex!!! When sex has the awesome potential to create life, it should not be considered recreational. There are moral implications associated with an activity that may result in life being initiated. Likewise, there are moral implications associated with an activity that may result in life being terminated.

Jillian

Thanks. Most people opposed to abortion usually aren't so honest about the fact that they object to the idea of people having sex for pleasure. Usually because they realize that the rest of us do occasionally like the idea of having sex for fun, and don't take kindly to being told that we should view the possibility of becoming pregnant as a punishment for us having the temerity to obtain pleasure from sex.

Your honesty about the unspeakable, unforgiveable, bad, wicked, naughtiness of "recreational sex" is refreshing. Nice to see people admitting that the ONLY purpose sex should EVER serve is reproduction.

Plush Colin

in germany an archbishop just recently compared widespread abortion to the holocaust. jewish organizations threatened to sue him, so they made him change his mind and take back what he had said

spicy

Thank you for telling me what I really think, Jillian. :banghead:

Actually, nothing you said in your post, other than the mention of my honesty :thumbs: , is true regarding what I said or think. You may want to believe that I said those things, but I said nothing of the kind. Maybe you need to try some honesty.

Jillian

Err....if you don't want people think that you are opposed to recreational sex, you should probably refrain from saying things like
Admittedly, I am operating on the assumption that sex can really only have two primary purposes - making babies (procreation) or having fun (recreation). If you are going to claim that sex shouldn't be considered recreational, then why else would anyone do it unless they wanted a baby?

I suppose you could consider it a form of aerobic exercise, but it's honestly not a very efficient one. Perhaps it could be a form of worship, if one belongs to an unusual religious sect?

spicy

I think that it is interesting that you separate sex into two primary purposes: procreation versus recreation, as if the two have nothing to do with one another. That is the point I was trying to make when I said that "sex and procreation have become dissociated in people’s minds". We tend to equate with sex with recreation & leave out procreation unless we are intentionally trying to get pregnant. In reality the two, sexual recreation & procreation, are intertwined for people capable of procreating.

I have nothing against recreational sex--I am no prude, believe me :devil3: --as long as the possibility of pregnancy and the moral implications that would have for both the man and the woman are considered. Sex is supposed to be pleasurable and I am happy for all of us who find it to be so. But I do believe that treating sex as purely recreational when it could result in the initiation of a new life is immoral. Use of birth control certainly shows a great degree of responsibility, and I definitely advocate its use, but since it is not 100% failsafe I believe that morality dictates that we be willing to accept the consequences of our actions if we choose to have vaginal intercourse when we are capable of procreation. I do not view pregnancy as a punishment for having sex. When I say "accept the consequences" I mean that we accept that we may have initiated a new life and are prepared to carry through with it if conception has occurred. We need to take responsibility for our actions. I think that it is immoral for people who do not want to conceive to knowingly risk pregnancy for the sake of recreational sex and then kill the new life that has resulted from their choice of recreation.

As for other purposes for sex, I agree that it can provide aerobic exercise and that it may provide a religious experience for some people (O Gawd, moan, pant). It is also a very effective stress reliever and provides opportunities for emotional bonding that can be very satisfying (in addition to the physical bonding). I hope I have conveyed to you that I LIKE sex. :thumbs: I am pro-sex. I am also pro-life.

PEEDNAR

Obviously the woman with the kid inside her vagina would be the one choosing whether or not she’s going to get a coat hanger and mangle her innards. The question isn’t who’s actually going to make the choice, it’s what choice is good, which is why we’re all here on these message boards anyways.

Apply your same non-rules to ideas like free speech which are also “potentially detrimental�? and “freethinkers�? like yourself would be crying taboo. If “potentially detrimental�? were a qualifier of whether or not something ought to be killed, then I’ve got a reason to go out any kill everyone. Supposedly, Saddam Hussein was also “potentially detrimental�? to the U.S.A, with his weapons of mass destruction and all. President Bush knows what you’re talking about when he preemptively attacked Iraq using your logic.

“can you list any good reason why one individual should be spared?�? If you think killing the innocent is a-ok then you’ve arrived at the absurd moral conclusion that atheistic ethics always leads to. My reason not to kill the innocent is religiously based.

--Sincerely,