emur

Yes, definitely a better person. As an example, I remember some years ago when my first wife's sister died in a tragic accident, that I had the gaul to say that she was in hell. It makes me sick to think that I was that cold-hearted. I wasn't like that all the time, but once is too much. Today I would consider such an action despicable.

You make a good point. I grew up with a horrible self image, and although I have overcome it significantly, to this day I struggle at a level with being told there is something wrong with me. But I will no longer be manipulated with it.

Likewise!

Mel

southernhybrid

I agree with you seebs. I used to think that all atheists were intelligent and enlightened but time spent here has proven me to be wrong. Atheists that imply all Xians are idiotic evil fools make me want to renounce my atheism. I'll take a tolerant, liberal Xian over a narrow minded, evangelical atheist anyday.

Starboy

To all Christians:

Tolerance is not getting along with opinions you like. It is getting along with opinions you do not like. If you can't do that then a) do not even think you are tolerant and b) don't visit this board. Consider the possibility that many of these so called intolerant atheists that you speak of are being very tolerant by allowing you to post and express your opinions on an atheist board. Just don't expect all of them to agree with you or to think much of your beliefs. Remember, 85% of the population of the US is Christian. In order for atheists to survive in this society they must be tolerant of Christianity. I tolerate Christian BS every day, just don't expect me to like it or think much of it. Oh and by the way, it doesn't bother me that you don't think much of my opinions on the subject of religion, but how Christians react most of the time is unfathomable given their belief system. The only explanations I can find is that even Christians don't believe in what they preach, or what they preach just doesn't work because Christianity lacks any active ingredient (no god).

If Christians were really tolerant, instead of criticizing atheist viewpoints and trying to convince atheists of their religious views they would be seeking common ground. I don't see much of that going on here. So much for tolerant Christians, it really is too much to expect from such a busted religion.

Starboy

seebs

Yes. But not necessarily with *actions* you don't like, such as "attacks on other belief systems".

Does this apply to you, too? I have yet to see you get along well with someone who doesn't share your opinion; I've even seen you attack other atheists for not being strident enough!

Many of them don't get a vote in how the board is run. I have no illusions; many of the intolerant people at ChristianForums would ban all the atheists if they could, but luckily, the guy in charge is wiser than that.

You're equivocating on usages of "tolerance" here. Tolerance, like the way one develops a tolerance to an allergen, is not the same thing as tolerance in the sense we're normally speaking of.

Well, then, perhaps you should learn a bit more about Christianity, because I think you'd find an answer to your dilemma if you were more familiar with the theology. It's a good habit to be at least basically familiar with the belief systems of others.

Hmm. So, for instance, they might hang around on IIDB, not proselytize unless asked nicely, and mostly talk about trying to build a culture in which people are allowed to believe whatever they want?

Good idea.

Meanwhile, I assume we can expect the same of you, since you frown so much on the intolerance you see in some Christians? Instead of attacking religious viewpoints, or trying to convince people of your views, you'll be seeking common ground? That'll help a *lot*.

Trees. Forest.

Starboy

seebs, you illustrate my point exactly. Your response is nothing more than a pissing match. You had a great opportunity to seek common ground and you blew it. Too bad your religion can't offer you any real guidance on how to live in harmony with people.


Starboy

seebs

That wasn't an "opportunity to seek common ground"; it was a series of flawed arguments and unsupported assertions, used as an attack against a belief system solely because it's different from yours, and you're uninterested in understanding the differences correctly.

You are committing the fallacy of generalization. You may be "an atheist", but you are not *representative*. My lack of common ground with you need not imply lack of common ground with other atheists. In fact, my experience has been that I have substantial common ground with almost everybody. The exceptions are people who are opposed to the existance of opposing belief systems.

You keep hiding this behind "only when it's incompatible with peace", but you constantly throw in little digs about how "busted" Christianity is, and how it's obviously impossible for it to be compatible with peace. You do this despite a fair number of counterexamples.

It's clear that you've made your mind up, and are not going to be reevaluating those opinions in terms of new data any time soon; with that in mind, I don't see much of a way to seek common ground. If you want common ground, start by finding out what Christianity is and isn't, and don't be so hasty to say "but I knew a guy who was Christian and didn't act like that". I know lots of people who don't do a very good job of living up to their stated ethics, and I've never met *anyone* who did a perfect job of it.

You might find that there's a lot of common ground to be had once you stop telling people that a belief system which is obviously working fine for them is "busted", using vague handwaving, equivocation, and vast overgeneralizations to "support" this claim.

Starboy

seebs, I am conducting an experiment. You are the subject. It would not be much of a test if I was easy to tolerate now would it. On another thread I did try to agree to disagree with you. I did try to seek common ground. Your response was lacksuster at best. Consider the possibility that you, like most Christians have a great deal to learn in the area of tolerance. Lessons that you are not finding within your own religion.

Starboy

seebs

I'm very impressed; you've been conducting this test for a fairly long time, and it doesn't seem to have changed at all since I showed up. Good planning.

Hmm. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that, each time I meet a new person, I am obliged to change my opinions yet again. I am not. I already found common ground with other belief systems. If you wish to join us, you are welcome. If you wish to join the crowd of people indignantly attacking belief systems other than their own, you are welcome to, but we will have very little common ground.

Is this supposed to be some form of surprise? I've known this for years, and this is an ongoing project.

I'm not? That's odd; my religion covers this very point, and suggests that no human is sufficiently compassionate or tolerant of other people. Perhaps you have mistaken my religion for another which does not cover this particular point.

If your complaint is that I have not yet mastered tolerance, I'm afraid you'll have to stand in line; there's a great number of things I haven't mastered, and which I will not master in this lifetime.

Nonetheless, it seems to me that your "experiment" is rather doomed to irrelevance; after all, the one thing tolerant people generally *can't* tolerate is intolerance (they are diametrically opposed), and when you exhibit intolerance, you set yourself unambiguously in opposition to any tolerant person on that issue, and, no surprise, you are opposed.

You will note that my opposition to your intolerance does not extend one particle beyond your intolerance. I do not advocate that you should change religions, like different music, dress differently... I advocate only that you should stop making those self-same claims of enlightenment you so despise in others. Admit that you, too, do not know the truth of these things, and have only your own opinions, and we'll get along splendidly.

Starboy

Okay seebs, lets grade the results:

1. You flunk. - you protest too much.
2. You flunk. - you are too defensive.
3. Flunk again. - you have a problem with atheists thinking that supernatural religion, including yours are worthless and that the world would be better off without them, and that intolerant religion should be eliminated, for which many fairly large branches of Christianity qualify. Did you think that atheists are atheists because they thought religion was really keen? The first step to learning tolerance is to understand that not everyone is going to think well of some of your most cherished beliefs. GET OVER IT.
4. Not applicable.

As I have stated before on another thread were we traded posts, I will agree to disagree on religion and Christianity in general. I am interested in finding common ground, such as separation of church and state, maintaining the freedoms of the constitution, peace and harmony in society and the world, understanding and tolerance. When I spoke of you blowing your opportunity, what I meant was that you blew your chance to talk about the things we might agree on. To change the subject as it were. This would have been a sign of tolerance.

The lack of tolerance from supernatural religion is not surprising since its primary goals have little to nothing to do with life on earth; it mostly cares about saving souls and getting into heaven.

And please not another lame argument about how it is not religion's fault that people are flawed and imperfect. If a CEO told his/her stockholders that the company was going out of business because its employees are flawed they would be fired. What good is a religion that cannot produce a harmonious and peaceful world using what is available - flawed people?

This exchange illustrates very well that "Christians, They just don't get it." Their religion is busted.

Starboy

Amie

Its not a matter of "getting it" Its just a matter of not seeing things how you see them.