David Mathews

Hello Madmax,

David: I don't concern myself with accusations that other people may make against me, nor with those accusations which they actually do make against me. I don't answer to those other people and there are no reasons why I should present myself in a manner that would fulfill the expectations of other people. I speak only for myself.

David: The reality of the matter is that the Bible is not preserved from corruption, nor does it claim to be preserved from corruption. I think that Christians have exaggerated the role of the Bible in religion and that is why they have wasted so much time attempting to prove its infallibility and inerrancy. The Bible does not make any such claims, hence the whole argument is futile.

David: Absolute truth is a useless luxury that Christians do not have and do not need. The reality of the Christian religion is in the life of the Christian, not necessarily the religious thoughts and beliefs of the Christian.

David: I can speak about the Bible in such a fashion without committing blasphemy because I love the Bible enough to not lie about it. My view of the Bible is inspired altogether by my devotion to its message. Those Christians who are afraid of errors become more concerned with irrelevant details rather than the message of the Bible which transcends history, science and chronology.

David: I can speak to atheists and agnostics specifically because I recognize that you are responsible for your own choices and therefore I can let you make those choices instead of dictating your thoughts and actions. You life for yourself and you will die for yourself, do what you will with your life and face whatever consequences you choose to face.

David: The Christians who might say so spend a lot less time than myself talking to all of these people. Tolerance and love are more important than truth and correctness in this world which is filled with so much hate, violence, prejudice, stereotyping and isolation.

David: There is no apathy whatsoever. I say these things because I am devoted to God's clear commandments. I have every intention of considering myself identical in every respect with all people, without regard to their accidental qualities, their personal convictions, their character, their religion, and their flaws and sins.

I can find no fault in others which I cannot find in myself. I can appreciate the virtues of others because I would like to find those same virtues in myself.

I draw no distinct division between myself and everyone else. The principle applies to the atheists here just as it would apply to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and fellow Christians in other contexts.

David: You do understand my comments! I appreciate that very much.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

madmax2976

<strong> I think I understand, but I'm not sure you do. You argue as though your view should be held as the view to hold, making judgements in regards to other theists, as to what they should do and characterizing them as having little faith in some situation and so on.

But then you turn around and essentially admit there's nothing concrete for you to based your statments on. This also appears to be the case for everything you've said against atheism and for theism. Quite strange. You take stands but admit you have no logical reason to take the stands that you do.

Oh well, at least we understand your approach to all of this.

HelenM

Originally posted by David Mathews:

I take it as an inescapable fact that all people are forgotten, their identities and all of their accomplishments are lost forever in the passage of time. For a small number of individuals, the name is preserved for years, centuries and for a lucky minority perpetually. Yet in the passage of time the name itself (such as "George Washington" and "Alexander the Great") becomes merely a sound, the person who possessed that name has essentially been forgotten as all that is preserves are imperfect memories of who the person was and what that person did.

I don't imagine that dead people really care about whether they are remembered or not. While in this life we might delude ourselves with the hope that someone will remember us, in reality we know that we devote only a small amount of our own time thinking about people who have died, and less time thinking about dead people who died before we were born.

People who make geneaologies are not acting on behalf of the dead. They make genealogies for their own self, the dead people's information serving only to provide a context for the life of the living. Once the name is discovered and the initial pleasure of discovery has passed, the name becomes just a name, and a life of many decades is condensed into several words and numbers.

I agree to some extent, but not entirely since I think it's not only a few people whose influence lives on. We all touch many other lives in many ways, regardless of whether our 'name' is known or remembered.

I hope that you are describing atheists accurately. I would hate to think that atheists approached life as if it were meaningless, purposeless and valueless.

In a few months I will have been married to one for 15 years; and for over a year I've interacted with atheists here and by e-mail. So I think I do have a fair idea about how they view life.

And fwiw, I'm glad that you care whether they approach life as if it's meaningless or not.

I do care about these people. What I don't care about is the opinion of me that these people might have. I don't care about what people might say about my faith, or the criticisms they may have of my reasons for believing what I have chosen to believe.

I care about people as they are, I have no investment in myself to protect, preserve or promote. People can think whatever they want about me, I have granted all people that freedom.

I appreciate this explanation. I understand better now what you do and don't care about.

love
Helen

David Mathews

The Tao & The Mystery of Existence

Atheists face the same mysteries that theists have contemplated for thousands of years. The fundamental philosophical questions which intellectual atheists attempt to resolve were subjects of dispute for religious people thousands of years ago.

As a Christian I do not limit myself to the religious shallows of all those people whose views closely match my own. I enter the full stream of thought inspired by religion, searching the many paths strictly for the benefit of the search rather than the desire to find.

I am prepared to live in a Universe with contradictions. I am willing to live in a Universe with unanswered questions. I can find peace in a Universe which still remains uncomprehensible.

My approach to the great mystery is not one of fear. Bold people can face the mysteries of life face on, simple people need answers to every question. Bold people can concede their own ignorance, simple people pretend that they can resolve every problem. Bold people can contemplete a omnipotent and omnipresent God owning their body, mind and soul; simple people prefer to dominate the Universe as the greatest and only intelligent life above all of the lesser life forms & inanimate matter.

I owe a little of my confidence and boldness to the message of great men, such as Lao Tzu and his profound Tao Te Ching. I read ths little book tonight and was inspired in particular by the following passages. I will quote them and allow you to contemplate the mystery of existence:

In addition to these statements regarding the mystery of the origin, the Tao Te Ching contains impressive advice such as:

Those who read the Tao Te Ching carefully will find it filled with contradictions/paradoxes. Those who read the scriptures of all of the world's religions will find contradictions/paradoxes. If you read the Bible you will certainly find contradictions and paradoxes. Such is the nature of inspiration.

Truth is its most raw form is well outside the reach of human comprehension. All prophets are liars, they cannot help but lie when they presume to talk about truth. All preachers are hypocrites, no one can live up to the standard of moral and ethical perfections set by God. All teachers are ignorant, there is no one who knows enough about anything.

Religion and Theism are the most powerful forces known to humankind, they provide greater inspiration than greed, bloodshed and sex. Throughout human history religion has characterized all forms of human intellectual expression.

Religion and theism are such powerful and fascinating subjects that they are the predominant subject of thought and contention even among those who reject both. Among all people atheists are particularly devoted to the concept of God even though they have denied it. In some cases you will find atheists are even more religious than religious people, and that atheists know more about the Bible than even Bible-thumping fundamentalists.

I think that atheists, in the majority of cases, either still believe in God (subconsciously) or want to believe in God (consciously). The reason why atheists seek out arguments and debates with theists is not to find converts to atheism. Not at all. Atheists seek arguments and debates because they want to be converted.

Of course, I might be mistaken. I can't look into your own soul. Yet I do listen to you all very closely, I know a little about atheism. I may be lying about some of you, but I certainly am not lying about all of you.

If you have any comments of objections, please state them.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

P.S. Quotes of the Tao Te Ching are taken from [b]A South Book in Chinese Philosophy, translated and edited by Wing-Tsit Chan.

Philosoft

<strong>Sez David Mathews:

I think that atheists, in the majority of cases, either still believe in God (subconsciously) or want to believe in God (consciously).</strong>

I sincerely hope you did not become this ignorant via your interaction with the atheists who frequent this website.

<strong>The reason why atheists seek out arguments and debates with theists is not to find converts to atheism. Not at all. Atheists seek arguments and debates because they want to be converted.</strong>

Whoever these atheists are, they're going to be seeking for a long time.

<strong>Of course, I might be mistaken. I can't look into your own soul. Yet I do listen to you all very closely, I know a little about atheism. I may be lying about some of you, but I certainly am not lying about all of you.</strong>

Beg pardon, what quantity did you have in mind when you used the term "majority" just above?

<strong>If you have any comments of objections, please state them.</strong>

Rest assured.

Ryanfire

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000432" target="_blank">My post</a>

David, I would appreicate it if you replied to my post above. Thanks.

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Ryanfire ]</p>

karlydee

it sounds to me like Lao Tzu had some insights into the quantum state of the universe

'formless yet complete'- never can be too sure [certain ] about that quantum soup simmering behind the scenes can we?

something about the 'being is not-being' Lao Tzu had that "if I look in the box is the cat dead?" thing down a long time before the question was aked.

but is most empaticlly does not sound to me thatmr Tzu was referring to any supernatural sepreme deity type entity, rather it is pretty clear on the first reading with a mind unencumbered by Xian dogma and drivel; that he is making the case that this 'Great Tao' is an intrinsically NATURAL quality inherent in all that exists

- maybe thats where 'use the force Luke' came from, which was a pretty cool movie idea until the came along in the pantom menace and F-ucked it all up with the explanation about mitichlorians[sp]-

Answerer

As a regular reader of Taoism, I can only say that your interpretations of the verses in the Tao de ching as vague and misleading. Lao zi aims to illustrate the ultimate nature of reality(in his own views at least) by stating the paradoxes in our daily experience and this , on the other hand , is entirely different from what the Bible had meant to preach.
So David, please don't compare the Tao de ching
with bible and mislead actual meaning of the verses in it. There is other far better examples than this.

Theli

David...

Bold people embrace ignorance?
How do you figure?
Is this another attempt of you to hock your own horn?

Honking your horn again... or more like your god's horn. Not a big difference, I might add.

The largest power hold by religion is that of war and ignorance.

I don't go around speaking of god all the time. I only do so on this board. Other than that I can live my life perfectly good without thinking of "god".

Many of the atheists on this board have been christians once.

That's the spirit, David!!! Honk that horn!!!

You know alot for someone who embrace ignorance. So we all want to be converted, huh?
If that's makes you feel better, you can believe that.

Answerer

Hi everybody, I wish to say something. It has clear that our talks with David has proved to be fruitless. Furthermore, David seem to enjoy to think of the atheists as some pathetic creatures or worse still some satanic followers. I, personally, see no reason to carry on a discussion with someone who is unapproachable with what we had to say.