Mageth

Don't screw up and throw any of that young goat's mother's milk in the pan!

hastalavista2u

>Well even though this sounds like just another rhetorical query--i think an 'agnostic theist' can at least appreciate a sincere reponse.
And I for one feel this to be another misconception that Christians are simply adopting a fear-based belief system,first and foremost.
And maybe for others,the idea of being like 'little gods' even here and now(for some),is motive enough to worship and obey the God of the Bible,as cold and harsh as He sometimes appears.

But truth is that many like myself are not wishing for more power or glory,per se,but mainly to have a CONFIDENT hope in the life to come.
And that initial 'fear' may be what first compels some,we later come to know and seek God for who He truly is and treats His own people.
Which is like night and day compared to how He deals with the rest.
If hell were not a possible fate,then most people would simply plan on being in heaven one day and doing what they pleased then,and even now.
It seems that humanity has somehow become so dead to it's sense of the Creator,that we must first be coerced and drawn back,and only then can be spiritually re-awakened.
Many see this as God making us take the first step.
But Christ was the true first step,and now our response is awaited.

So why should we reach for God?
Well if you are even a partial 'seeker' for something,then you are more than capable of reaching for Him,even if you don't comprehend what you are reaching for.
Personally,i was never taught or indoctrinated from an early age like some were.
All I can really recall is being in church one Sunday and opening my Bible to Proverbs-1:2-
'To know wisdom and instruction:to perceive the words of understanding.'
From then on I somehow KNEW that this was the 'Truth' above all else.
And it didn't feel like I had concluded this from my own instincts,but almost like it came from somewhere,or Something else?
I think that's how it is with all believers when they first become aware of this.
Wishful thinking has nothing to with it.
Since why would you 'wish' for something you already know is available??

Ok,what i would say to any 'seekers' is to simply try this 'exercise'.
Even if you feel ridiculous doing it,you may have to adopt that 'what the hell' attitude that many are so adept at.
It doesn't even matter where you are,or what mental state you are in.
God will meet you whenever you draw close to Him.
Just ask Him to show you some manifested 'sign' that will confirm He has heard you.
This may seem very minor,but unmistakable to one who is truly open to it,and awaiting an answer.

Just expect the unexpected,and it may just happen when you least expect it!
You know what they say about 'be careful what you wish for'?
The key is discerning what is of God and what is just a natural cause or phenomena.
So then the key lies in synchronicity,and the timing of when,where,why,and how one's prayer is answered.
But if you are not in tune to this,and choose to remain willingly oblivious,then God has very little to work with.
That may sound unfair and even very illogical for an all-knowing God,but He is limited by His own pre-ordained laws.
And logic is relative,since a fallen world without a 'Saviour' is very illogical,as I see it.

Bottom line is that His holiness and perfection are so far beyond our realm of comprehension that we will never know all the reasons behind His ways.
Either you accept this,or you better pray that He will somehow reach out to you even beyond your own limitations and carnal nature.
And maybe He will,why wouldn't He?
But that is between you and Him alone.
I wish you the best,either way.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Theitist ]

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Theitist ]</p>

Pookmaster

[quote]Originally posted by Odemus:
<strong>I'm one of those easily controlled automatons hardwired to believe anything my genes have preprogrammed me to accept as reality.

It has little, if anything, to do with your genes, and a lot to do with your conditioning, especially during infancy and childhood.

This is the problem with so many believers - this sickening self-righteousness. "Without God there is no meaning regardless of what anyone says"?? If there's any clearer indication of indoctrination, I'd like to see it.

People reach for god because a) they are told to and b) they are searching for answers and/ or refuge. As Howard Zinn said: "...Opium is no solution, but it may be necessary to relieve pain." Reaching for god is a sign of weakness, either of inability to cope with the real world or lack of willingness to change it.

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Pookmaster ]</p>

Pookmaster

[QUOTED BY THEITIST]
"But truth is that many like myself are not wishing for more power or glory,per se,but mainly to have a CONFIDENT hope in the life to come.
And that initial 'fear' may be what first compels some,we later come to know and seek God for who He truly is and treats His own people.
Which is like night and day compared to how He deals with the rest.
If hell were not a possible fate,then most people would simply plan on being in heaven one day and doing what they pleased then,and even now.
It seems that humanity has somehow become so dead to it's sense of the Creator,that we must first be coerced and drawn back,and only then can be spiritually re-awakened.
Many see this as God making us take the first step.
But Christ was the true first step,and now our response is awaited.

So why should we reach for God?
Well if you are even a partial 'seeker' for something,then you are more than capable of reaching for Him,even if you don't comprehend what you are reaching for.
Personally,i was never taught or indoctrinated from an early age like some were.
All I can really recall is being in church one Sunday and opening my Bible to Proverbs-1:2-
'To know wisdom and instruction:to perceive the words of understanding.'
From then on I somehow KNEW that this was the 'Truth' above all else.
And it didn't feel like I had concluded this from my own instincts,but almost like it came from somewhere,or Something else?
I think that's how it is with all believers when they first become aware of this.
Wishful thinking has nothing to with it.
Since why would you 'wish' for something you already know is available??

Ok,what i would say to any 'seekers' is to simply try this 'exercise'.
Even if you feel ridiculous doing it,you may have to adopt that 'what the hell' attitude that many are so adept at.
It doesn't even matter where you are,or what mental state you are in.
God will meet you whenever you draw close to Him.
Just ask Him to show you some manifested 'sign' that will confirm He has heard you.
This may seem very minor,but unmistakable to one who is truly open to it,and awaiting an answer.

Just expect the unexpected,and it may just happen when you least expect it!
You know what they say about 'be careful what you wish for'?
The key is discerning what is of God and what is just a natural cause or phenomena.
So then the key lies in synchronicity,and the timing of when,where,why,and how one's prayer is answered.
But if you are not in tune to this,and choose to remain willingly oblivious,then God has very little to work with.
That may sound unfair and even very illogical for an all-knowing God,but He is limited by His own pre-ordained laws.
And logic is relative,since a fallen world without a 'Saviour' is very illogical,as I see it.

Bottom line is that His holiness and perfection are so far beyond our realm of comprehension that we will never know all the reasons behind His ways.
Either you accept this,or you better pray that He will somehow reach out to you even beyond your own limitations and carnal nature.
And maybe He will,why wouldn't He?
But that is between you and Him alone.
I wish you the best,either way."

Shouldn't you be out door-knocking somewhere?

Odemus

The outcome of your scenario may be just as you predict but it doesn't change reality in the slightest.

I feel sorry for you that you feel the need to look for a temporal passing exterior source for your meaning. I hope this helps


When you are dead your refutation will still be totally devoid of meaning (according to your philosophy) whether you choose to accept it or not.

Meaning is only meaning when checked against an objective standard reality. Without that it's nothing more than the movement of atoms in a cosmic slideshow.

A3

Hi Icebrc,

Welcom and thanks for your good question but a very tough one to imagine the answer to for someone that does not believe God exists. Ask a boy why a grown-up might love a woman and (since he hates everything to do with girls) he can’t think of one single reason why anyone could possibly do such a thing.

I have no problem believing that there is a power higher than I, and to call that power “God.” AA recommends it as one of the necessary steps towards healing. This belief makes sense to me and is supported by just about everything perceived with the six senses. Whatever we sense is not a part of that organ. In the same way as sound is not part of the ear or light not part of the eye, so thought is not part of the brain but it all comes back, one step higher, to the mind, the real us.
I believe that He created these two beautiful worlds, the heavens and the earth i.e. the spiritual and the narural world for our benefit and for us to manage to the best of our ability. Swedenborgians equate this physical part of our existence also with a spiritual “womb” in which we develop ourselves into whatever we want, every day we are here. A womb can be uncomfortable at times but it is to our long-term benefit, until we are ‘born’ into spiritual life.

My reaching out to God is a response to Him reaching out to me and giving me love and life. Love, anywhere, has to be reciprocal to exist. Amazingly also, each time physical things are shared they divide, but when love is shared it multiplies. This reciprocity, however, became close to nil 2000 years ago which caused a whole string of events that I am very grateful for that they happened.
The relationship between a child and its parents goes through different phases as the child matures. There seems an amazingly similar relationship between humanity and God as depicted in the Old and the New Testament and what we ourselves sometimes refer to as the Third Testament.

Just musing along, it comes to mind that our attitude seems to be the deciding factor regarding what we will accept or reject. It is, no doubt, shaped and influenced by our environment (as Answerer indicated) but as humans we are not robots or “hardwired” computers; we can change direction any time we want to. Sometimes things are reversed too, a child can ask questions which start the parents on a quest for truth.

Regards
Adriaan

Uni-Universe

People decide to enter a religion whether it is monotheism, polytheism, animism or ethicalism because they are searching for meaning and in some religions, searching for insight and how to bring that out into their lives. Some people search through spirituality because of self-improvement reasons. Some people explore spirituality because they have had unexplainable experiences that cannot be explained scientifically.

And in most instances, it is so embedded in their culture that to not be a part of the accepted religion would mean becoming an outcast. Religions serve functions in society: Supportive function (people find support and a sense of belonging), Social control function (religions sacralize the norms and values of established society; religions inhibits crime, delinquency, and deviant behavior in general), prophetic function, and identity function.

I really don't know why people are against religion. I think like everything in the world there are negative and positive sides. I think that the positives out weigh the negative. In American culture, it is more accepted than other places for people to choose whatever religion or whatever philosophy (religious or atheism) to live by. I think that is a good thing.

It is a negative thing when people on one side decide to believe they are the only ones who are right and everyone else who do not believe as they do are wrong. That is when social and interpersonal problems come about.

I think it is in our DNA to believe in some sort of higher power no matter what culture one is born in. I think it is sort of predisposed biologically and then nurture either developes the belief in us or diminishes it depending on one's socialization and upbringing.

If you do not believe in God, then that is what you learned. It could have easily gone the other way if you had been socialized and if your experiences had promoted the belief.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Uni-Universe ]</p>

Answerer

People don't believe in religions is largely due to the fact that they don't want to believe in something untrue and live with some religious prejudices and bigotry for the rest of their lives. They are just being honest with themselves and you should respect their choices.

Ojuice5001

I have no objection to 10% of the population (or whatever it is) being atheists. I only fear for the possibility that atheism will take over the world, leaving humans just as ignorant as a beast when it comes to the gods. My attitude towards Christians is similar; there's nothing wrong with them except that there are a hundred thousand times as many of them as there are Roman and Greek pagans.

philechat

Existential certainty, perhaps? If a given metaphysical system adequately (let's pretend it's not incongruent with the observable world right now) meets the person's fundamental questions of life, then the system is taken as true.

Science usually limits itself with the "how" of things, of different forces and combinations affecting each other in a natural system. Since it concerns itself in discriptions and explanations of natural phenomenon, it ignores the subjective (existential) experience of human life. This void, which appears to leave life without meaning or significence, is the reason people feel plagued by doubt and anxiety. A neatly packaged metaphysical system, one that expresses itself in cultural/collective symbols and a structured way of life, keeps the people occupied with its meanings and forgot about the void.

I would consider artistic creativity (or the passion for world-reform, or passion for scientific/philosophical inquiry) and individual myth-making (while knowing them to be inherently make-believe) to be adequate substitutes for common religion. However, I understand how my view may be bleak or undesirable to many people, who demand a greater level of existential certainty than I do.

[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>