free12thinker

AJ113,

You note that without God, people can identify their own set's of morals by which to live. Is this to say that you believe people's sensibilities play no part in their moral character? Also, does this (to you), mean that everyone who is moral, is moral becuase of God's influence?

brighid

AJ – I agree with ex-preacher here … please keep your faith if loosing it will cause you to go on some criminal rampage. However, this does not say anything about the lack of morality in people who are atheist. I, personally find it very sad that you require the threat of an unending punishment to be coerced into doing what is right. Your admission here speaks to YOUR actual moral character and not the absence of moral fiber in the atheist. I don’t need to threat of eternal punishment to do what is right for a fellow human being. I find it morally repugnant (without the influence of God) to do things such a rape someone, steal from them, lie, murder others, etc.

The true test of ones character is what one would do if he or she knew they wouldn’t get caught. According to your philosophy you would go out and rape, murder and pillage if you knew (or thought) you wouldn’t get caught by your God! So what does that say about YOU? It says that you lack the moral character you claim to have by your god, that you personally require forceful coercion to behave in a manner conducive to your own survival and the respect for other human beings and it says that your religion has really taught you nothing about morality, OR strengthened your character. How truly and utterly pathetic and yet you and those like you have the audacity to call the atheist immoral and evil!

Brighid

Blu

I am very surprised that these sentiments still come into play in a seemingly intelligent mind. It is the atheist argument that the world is "screwed up" because of religion. That is greatly simplifying matters of the world!

First of all if there are no Gods how can they be horrible dictators? Again it is not God or religion that causes human destruction of war, crime, poverty, etc. It is the human mind and action. How do we change this as a society? You imply we simply have to remove religion. Not so. You would have to remove political discord over land etc, you would have to remove poverty, abuse, and educate the masses.

People, through Religion, actually end up doing great humanitarian deeds. What have you done? Christians feed the poor and donate clothing. They actually started the whole social welfare "idea." If there was the lack of motivation people seem to derive from religion to do GOOD, where would we be?

You need to read a little bit more about religions in order to be a harsh critic of religions. You actually need to be around religious people to get an idea of how their minds work. And more importantly in order to make an objective argument you need to remove your judgements based on generalization and bias. You also need to look at religion in an objective light and look at the facts.

You will see if you do all of these that religion is definitely not the cause of the problems in the world. You would also see that the pros actually out weigh the cons.

You can try to prove that religion is a horrible thing by twisting your perspective of what are causes and effects of the problems in the world. But that does not make your view scientific proof or objectively valid. You like many in this thread have only stated subjective points of view and these views and judgments are usually based on anger, biases, stereotypes, and the lack of real knowledge on the subject.

Please try to Prove me wrong.

Blu

free12thinker

Blu,
Do you deny that people act on the blueprint of life as recorded in 'their' bible. In this, do you deny that they read about the greatness of 'their' god, as it's inflated and overstated, and carry such high thoughts about such god, which in turn leads to low opinions of others who follow other gods. And do you deny that this train of thought, applied with a pinch of fear for their almighty god and a scoop of hope for eternal forgiveness, leads people to lash out against those whose life (in any capacity) fails to mimic that of 'their' god.

Do you deny all of this?

If you do, I will ask you to explain to me the travesty behind the Israeli/Palistine conflict, the 9/11 conflict, the Mass Suicide in California 5? years ago, Hitlers treatment of the jewish community, the Roman Catholic Church and their control over (pretty much the whole world) in the early ages, our lack of tolerance and mistreatment of women for so long, homosexuals for so long (and to some extent (read:Christian) today, and.......

brighid

Woe Blu – pump your brakes! First of all you are unaware of the extent of my readings, knowledge and interactions with ANY religious group)(s to make such a statement about what I NEED or NEED not do – a sweeping generalization and judgment not founded upon any actual knowledge about me but formed from one or a FEW posts. I have read EXTENSIVELY on the subjects of religion and do so every day. I have managed religious forums, and I have extensive knowledge about MANY world religions and the people in those religions. I WAS religious, brought up in a religious family and I am a MINORITY in this world and I know how the average religious mind works. I DID not say that religious people do not do humanitarian deeds – EVER – not in this post or any other, but rather I wish people in general would adopt a more Humanistic worldview. One that precludes them from viewing people as “others” and viewing and treating them the human dignity their very existence SHOULD mandate.

The comment was specifically and ONLY in reference to those religious people who believe as our poster AJ believe and in fact there are MANY religious folk that BELIEVE they need the ever present threat of eternal torture to be “moral” as clearly stated by AJ, is a harsh reality that IS a major problem. And there is MUCH “evil’ and “immorality” in this world because these types of religious folk adhere to such an ignorant and fallacious belief system that dictates to them that their God mandates ridiculous crap like killing non-believers, adulterers, homosexuals and any one who doesn’t agree with their brand of Christianity/Islam/Judaism etc – or otherwise discriminating against them, denying them basic human rights, etc.

Indeed there are many people, religious and otherwise who engage in humanitarian endeavors for different reasons. Some do so for nothing more then doing what is right only because it is right (both religious and irreligious), or for more selfish reasons like the hopes of a reward in the afterlife or gaining favor with their God. I do not, nor have I stated that the world is BAD souly because of religion. Religion is an element that has and does promote good, not altruistically, AND does and continues to promote hate, intolerance, prejudice, violence, genocide and war. THESE are the elements of religion that I think need elimination. I believe that the elimination of mind control techniques with the express purpose of controlling and limiting the behavior of people is wrong and that people should be taught in an appropriate manner conducive to freedom of thought and expression while teaching humanitarian morals that promote the good of ALL people regardless of their ethnic makeup, religious preference, gender, handicap, sexual orientation or any other human distinction that has been used as an excuse to harm and oppress people – some of the essential principles of HUMANISM!

I do not abdicate or desire the repression or forcible removal of religion, even if I fervently disagree with MOST of it because that would be antithetical to my respect for freedom of thought and expression. I HOPE that with further education people will relinquish their superstitions in favor of reason and logic and embrace humanism over theism, in order to eliminate the very negative aspects of religious thought and expression. I believe that any philosophy that breeds, encourages and supports hatred, violence and discrimination against fellow human beings is wrong and should be shunned! And although I am not perfect, and I am subject to my own subjective experiences I do my best to judge each person on their individual actions and demonstration of their character. I do not discriminate against people in my life because of their religion. Good people are good people and hard to come by. But I will not stand by and gloss over the horrors of religion because in some instances it promotes good. I will give credit where credit is due. Furthermore I support many religious organizations and events when I feel they are doing so without proselytizing or discrimination and I have no problem with religious people per say – only those fucking morons that use it to justify their hatred and harm of other human beings. Forgive me for seeing the failures of religion and attempting to address them, rather then ignore them and hope they will go away!!

I do not find it surprising that religious people who worship a God who is cruel, arbitrary, jealous, angry, vengeful, intolerant, etc. ALSO act in such ways. Nor do I find it surprising that people who worship a God that is all those things and also claims to be loving, merciful and kind will demonstrate those kinder qualities as well. I personally find it regrettable and sad that people NEED to be threatened or promised some sort of paradise to be good. I also find it regrettable that this loving religion teaches people they are hopelessly incorrigible and defective by design and ONLY a belief in ONE deity will make them better.

I am prone to polemics and short expressions that may not always convey the complexity or full accuracy of my intent and for this I apologize. But you have demonstrated your own hypocrisy by criticizing me for generalization and then making some pretty interesting ones about ME.


Brighid

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

And I am very surprised that you find it necessary to share your seemingly condescending evaluation.

'The' atheist argument? Not mine.

This is from the 'Humanities instructor' whose sentiments incude the assertion that "in the book of Genesis evolution is "discussed", and that Genesis, von Daniken, and Darwin equally valid explanations.

Jayhawker Soule

A jury just rendered a verdict against a racist who bombed a Christian church ...

I believe that the various manifestations of xenophobia (e.g., nationalism, racism) are far more culpable than religion. Religion can be used as a tool to assert superiority, and it can be used as a reason to defend the persecuted: both Hitler and Schweitzer read the same bible more or less. As an atheist, I reject religion because I believe it to be false, not because I believe it to be inherently evil. IMO, the demonization of religion is the weakest of arguments against religious superstition.

free12thinker

I too am an atheist because I believe it to be false, but when a theist questions the negative influence of religion, I am free to question his position, right?

Jayhawker Soule

Yes, you're free to question his position ...

AJ113

There is no need to take it to mean anything. I defined my meaning in the next paragraph, to which you answered:

Yet in your previous post you said:

I think the essences of the two statements are in disagreement with each other.

Now I'm really confused. Whose reason are your ethics based on? Your own? But you said that principles and morals are not defined in isolation.

Are they defined in tandem with your fellow humans? What quantity of "tandemness" do you allow before the situation changes to one where you are doing what you are told no matter what the right thing is?

And how do you define "right?"

For an ex-preacher, you sure do preach a lot.

For a theist, the deeper motivation is peace of mind.

Why not let all parties educate the others on their positions?