hereandnow

I wouldn't worry too much. Years of church and sunday school are what made me an atheist today.

AspenMama

Lunachick has some good advice. My experience with my son now going on eight was to always be honest with him about my beliefs and lots of trips to see dinasour bones! My son just last year related an adult's belief in god to a child's belief in Santa Claus-- I never played that up much and was honest as possible while keeping that magic alive. He figured it out on his own. I think that honesty must be across the board with your children-- you can't make up stuff sometimes and then tell the truth other times-- as with the whole Santa Claus thing.

hereandnow echoes something that I've heard many times. Most intelligent atheists I know, became that way after a careful and diligent look at the bible and comparisons of other religions. Take your child to the museum. Buy a few nice hardbacks that are age appropriate about the sciences. Pique her interests in bugs and nature. Read her mythology and legends from Asian countries and Native Americans. The library and museums are your best friend.

HelenM

I hope you don't mind if I respond to this part of what you wrote...

First, the 'blue bowl is red' thing sounds like it could be a little intense - especially if you do it until she gets angry. Perhaps it's not necessary to push critical thinking that intensely and in such a structured way, at this point in her life, even if she is a very intelligent child.

I'm saying this because I think your primary goal is to build a great relationship with her, as far as possible. To make Daddy time very fun time (it sounds like it is, on the whole, if you have Dad-daughter outings to the lake to collect bugs and tadpoles). As you spend time together, just chatting and playing, she will learn a lot from you; I believe she will learn critical thinking as she listens to you and by the way you respond when she asks you questions.

I also find that I have gone all out to teach my kids something, which has been a real struggle, and six months or a year later it's way easier. If I had waited I would have saved me and my children a lot of aggravation.

I'm not trying to minimize your concerns but simply to say, be careful not to be so intense about trying to teach her stuff that it stops being fun for her.

Helen

keyser_soze

We have daddy/daughter time...generally we go to the park and feed ducks and koi. Big fun to be had. Or we catch bugs for her terrarium. We type a bit(she loves this, I promise I did NOT influence this one...). We do lots of things together...but it's a concern I have, because she has so much MORE christian input on her. She is absorbed in it many, many hours a week. She came home to tell me that "Only god can make the rain". I thought she had misunderstood something in her class, but no...I read the sunday school book they use. Along with "only god can cause the rain", was "God wants our family to give money to the church". I swear, cross my heart, that was the name for two separate lessons. I was incredulous! Can you imagine my thoughts? All the critical thinking skills in the world are not going to help at the current rate. I am more appalled today than yesterday. I had all but decided to take a hands off approach until this happened. What was the dimwit who designed these lesson plans thinking?

The Other Michael

That children are very impressionable and easily led/swayed?

cheers,
Michael

keyser_soze

Yeah, that's kinda the road my mind immediately started barreling down at 180mph.....( you know, they need a smilie for that feeling you get when you are about to be fired, or when you step out into a street just as a semi comes around the corner at you, it would so fit the feeling I got.)

sakrilege

While this may be true for you, the statistics show that the majority of people believe in god after years of church and sunday school. I think keyser_soze is right to be concerned that the brainwashing might work.

villainess

Actually, "only god can make the rain" sounds like a good in for a fun critical thinking/ science lesson. If she's already into terrariums, surely you can show her condensation in a closed environment, and steam, and explain about warm and cold air masses in simple language. Warm and cold are easily intuited concepts even for a little kid. If they're whipping out the Noah/ rainbow story on her too, you can show her prisms and make rainbows with the spray from a garden hose.

The main thing with four year olds, in my experience, is not to overestimate their patience. But I'm sure you already know that.

As for "god wants our family to give money to the church" maybe you should read her _A Bargain for Frances_ by the Hobans.... I don't know.

the_villainess

HelenM

That sounds wonderful and if she loves to type that may be a testimony to the power of role-modelling

Presumably Sunday School is only an hour or two a week; is she in a Christian pre-school? Or are the other hours mostly comprised of time with your wife and your mother?

In part I face the same dilemma although it's self-imposed - i.e. I don't want my children being in church to hinder them learning critical thinking skills.

So far it doesn't seem to me that it is.

For example, as my kids get older (they are now 10 and 7) they learn such things at school as that there is a rain cycle. They accept that as the truth. I don't know if they ever heard "God makes the rain" at church but if so, their interpretation about what that statement can mean does not set aside their understanding that rain comes from clouds formed by evaporation of water off the earth. To know whether to take umbrellas to school they read the weather forecast and look outside at the weather. As best I can tell, theyy understand the principles of gathering data in order to arrive at conclusions...etc...

But nevertheless, if you find what your daughter is hearing at Sunday school unacceptable, then you need to talk to your wife about it. But I suggest that before you do so, you have an 'alternate viable plan'. And bear in mind the way kids think and what they remember. My experience is that children don't remember specific content that well - your daughter may not remember a single Sunday School lesson theme in a few years. However if you stop her doing what she thinks is 'fun', she may well remember that. And I'm not saying that means you have to let her do everything she likes - it's up to you as her parent to do what you think is in her best interests, whether she likes it or not. I'm just trying to encourage you to think through a) do I consider the risk of this being seriously detrimental to her great enough that I will pull her out of something she likes (it sounds like your answer may well be 'yes', at the moment) b) do I have a viable alternative I can present to my wife (I guess so, if you are available during church time to do something with your daughter instead c) how can I raise the issue with my wife in a way mostly likely to achieve change in the direction I want to see change?

I don't know what long-term effect the teaching your child is hearing now is likely to have. I can say is that at age 4, your child's mind is a mix of accurate facts and also a lot of misconceptions/ignorance about the world in general. Her thoughts and ideas are bound to go through a lot of change as she gets older.

I hope what I wrote makes sense and I also hope you'll listen to the experience of those who were in a conservative Sunday School and/or influenced by conservative Christian authority figures at age four, or who have had children who were and now are older, to help you assess the likely long-term effects of it on your child's ability to think critically and her beliefs/nonbeliefs. I've found that people who've 'been there, done that' generally are invaluable in helping me know whether my fears about my children are justified or not.

Helen

keyser_soze