Shadowy Man

It's worse than that... your buddy's "plane" doesn't even have wings. Neither does it have controls: it flys by the power of thought!

Eric H

Analogies never work very well, but here is another one any way.

BELIEF VERSES FAITH.
I can sit here writing this and say “I believe it is easy to make a parachute jump” believing is easy because it requires no action, beliefs can only have a meaning if I am prepared to act on them.
The only way I can have faith in parachuting is to put a parachute on go up in a plane and jump.
It involves total trust, making a parachute jump is taking a risk a few people have suffered a serious injury other people have been killed? If I have any doubts I will not jump by choice.
Partial faith is not enough, how can I partially jump out of a plane? Maybe I have a small amount of faith, would that be just enough to jump off the kitchen table?
Partial faith or a little faith is the same as having no faith at all because we do not take the risk to let our life depend on the parachute. Only by stepping out of a plane and into the unknown will I put all my faith into these unproven factors about parachuting that I can only believe and hope would be sound for me.
If I make one jump I only need faith once, if I make several jumps I need a new faith for each time I jump. If I have a close experience with death while parachuting will I still have enough faith to make another jump?

It is easy to believe in God, believing in God can have no meaning and no value if it is only an academic exercise. How can I have faith in God? It requires total trust, like parachuting we need to jump and put our trust fully in God and hope that he will look after us. But how can I prove that there is a God? How many Gods are there? There are lots of claims for all religions how can I know which religions are acceptable to God? How can I know what to do if I believe in a God? How can I know if there is life after death?

Whilst it must be impossible to prove the existence of God, he either exists totally or there is no God at all. The ‘probably God’ can only exist in a persons mind.

Even though we cannot prove that there is a God and a greater life after death, our actions should show that we trust there is a very real God and that he will look after us when we die. If we are to believe in a God there is a need to believe in a God in the greatest way so that we may act towards each other in the greatest way.
With partial faith or a little faith we will only do the less demanding things that God asks of us, things that we feel comfortable with. Partial faith or a little faith is not enough; to have faith in God once is not enough; faith should be a continuous journey throughout life. Each day we show our faith in God by the way in which we relate and act towards all our neighbours that we come into contact with.
Do I have a real belief that my God created the whole human family including people, who are atheists, Muslims, Jews, and Christians? Do I really love all these people as I love myself? Do my words and actions show that I have faith that we are all related through one God even though they believe differently to me? What kind of a risk am I prepared to take because I have faith in God in this way? If I have a bad experience with other people will I doubt my faith, will I loose my faith? In times of temptation is my faith in God strong enough to do what is right? By my actions do I take the risk to do what is right in threatening circumstances and not follow the crowd because I have faith in God and a greater life after death.
If the religions of the world pray for peace why isn’t there peace between them? Is it a lack of faith; is it easier to pray for peace to happen in some distant land than to seek a relationship with people from all the diverse faith communities where I live?
To have faith in God is voluntary, I have the freedom to choose God through any religion I like, or I can reject God by choice.

It is mankind and not God who may impose pressures on me to believe in a certain way.

ranting again.

peace

Eric

Infidelettante

Think of the emotional investment people make in religion. First, at least with Christianity, you must admit your sinful nature. I mean, you have to see yourself as the reprobate you are. You must recognize that it is utterly impossible for you to change that condition on your own. You must realize that this is all your fault and that you deserve to be punished in hell forever. You take a powerful blow to your self esteem. The lowest of the low. The worst of the worst. Slime. Even worse than slime, the stuff slime makes fun of. Then you find out there is a way out. The Joy! The relief! The happiness! The love! The leap...as in faith.

Convince someone all the worst is going to happen to them and then show them the other side is just that far away but they have to make it on faith and they will jump. Having been through all this is it any wonder most of them never question it deeply enough to see through it? Most of the ones who do question it deeply enough to find a way out will tell you it can be a very painful experiance. It was in me case.

JT

malookiemaloo

Faith can easily transcend knowledge. After all someone who is 'noy very bright' and does not know much, can still have faith. How do you view that type of faith?


m

Stephen T-B

I think a distinction must be made between Belief and belief.
I believe my son was telling the truth when he said he was on a bus and not robbing old Mrs Grundy down the road. I’m not absolutely certain of it, but it’d be nice if it were so.
Belief in god, however, is certainty of God’s existence. It takes us beyond “it’d be nice if there’s a God” to “I KNOW for a fact there’s a God.”
Faith, it was explained by a Christian who took part in an I.I. discussion last year (whose name I’ve forgotten) is something else. Christians, he said, have faith in the redemptive power of Jesus Christ and in life everlasting and the love of God.
As I understand it, all their instincts tell them there is indeed a God; what these instincts cannot tell them, however, is how reliable this God is going to be, so that’s where Faith comes into the picture.

(It was after reading posts here by Christians that I reached the conclusion that Belief-in-God is actually Certainty-of-God.
I used to claim a paradox: that Believers seek to buttress their Belief by evidence, and that if ever evidence were provided, it would extinguish Belief.
I think I missed the point: a Believer’s certainty about the existence of God does waver from time to time, turning from certainty to doubt. The necessity to believe is so strong, however, that a certain amount of clutching at straws goes on. And these life-saving straws may be found in church, in prayer, in community, in sermons, in songs and hymns and in stories or re-awaked memories which provide “evidence” of God’s benevolence. So evidence is sought, but the criteria used in judging its worth is so subjective that even the Believer is aware that it wouldn’t stand up in a court of law. Its validity, is in fact, a question of Faith.)

malookiemaloo

Nice one!


m

Eric H

Hello JTVrocher

Sometimes I think Christianity can give people a really hard time, and you sound like you’ve been squeezed through the mangle big time.

Christianity must be right for it to have any meaning.

From what you are saying it has caused you a great deal of pain, something has to be wrong.

I walked away from the Church for around thirty years; my major disagreement with the church still exists, so in a way I have come back even though I still disagree with the way some aspects of Christianity are taught. I still voice my doubts and question the Catholic Churches teachings.

Like so many things, Christianity suffers from interpretation, probably every separate Christian Religion will tell you that they hold the truth, and there must be at least a thousand Christian Religions with many variations of truth.

You can listen to a number of priests from the same religion, and you sense that their interpretation of faith can come from different angles.

Then you look around and see that there are Muslims, Hindu, Jews, to name but a few, it seems that we need faith despite mans bests efforts to complicate things.

But if you are to have this faith, you need a purpose and a motivation great enough, so that it makes some sense.

Can there be a great enough purpose?

Peace

Eric

ImGod

Why do you wonder about this? Remember, a non theist only believes in one less god (more or less) than a theist. It's interesting how many people can evaluate other religions and label them absurd while not applying the same criteria to their own.

generic

I agree with that. Christanity seems to be an all or nothing type of thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by Eric H It is easy to believe in God, believing in God can have no meaning and no value if it is only an academic exercise. How can I have faith in God? It requires total trust, like parachuting we need to jump and put our trust fully in God and hope that he will look after us. But how can I prove that there is a God?

I think if you have faith in your religion (for the sake of discussion let's say Christianity) and your God the faith/belief (sometimes those seem interchangable to me) implies that you don't question the EoG?

I do have questions about the EoG, but I think a faith or belief in God would be more than enough to put those questions to rest.

Quote:

Originally posted by Eric H Even though we cannot prove that there is a God and a greater life after death, our actions should show that we trust there is a very real God and that he will look after us when we die. If we are to believe in a God there is a need to believe in a God in the greatest way so that we may act towards each other in the greatest way.

Well said.

Quote:

Originally posted by Eric H With partial faith or a little faith we will only do the less demanding things that God asks of us, things that we feel comfortable with. Partial faith or a little faith is not enough; to have faith in God once is not enough; faith should be a continuous journey throughout life. Each day we show our faith in God by the way in which we relate and act towards all our neighbours that we come into contact with. Do I have a real belief that my God created the whole human family including people, who are atheists, Muslims, Jews, and Christians? Do I really love all these people as I love myself? Do my words and actions show that I have faith that we are all related through one God even though they believe differently to me? What kind of a risk am I prepared to take because I have faith in God in this way? If I have a bad experience with other people will I doubt my faith, will I loose my faith? In times of temptation is my faith in God strong enough to do what is right? By my actions do I take the risk to do what is right in threatening circumstances and not follow the crowd because I have faith in God and a greater life after death. If the religions of the world pray for peace why isn’t there peace between them? Is it a lack of faith; is it easier to pray for peace to happen in some distant land than to seek a relationship with people from all the diverse faith communities where I live? To have faith in God is voluntary, I have the freedom to choose God through any religion I like, or I can reject God by choice. It is mankind and not God who may impose pressures on me to believe in a certain way. ranting again. peace Eric

Well put Eric.

generic

I guess at some point everyone or at leat I want to be able to believe in something greater than myself...like God. But there are so many questions and so many alternatives that it's hard to be one of his 'flock' of believers. For me it seems like in order to become a believer you first need faith.

After reading over some of the replies and thinking a little it seems that answers are individual (duh? well for me it wasn't common sense) and like most things will take time to figure out.