HelenM

Hi Tercel

Can we even be sure Jesus said it?

As to where I'm coming from...well, if you figure it out, let me know...

I was hoping you'd justify your second-chance theology - explain where that comes from - rather than simply implying that maybe Jesus didn't mean the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be literal. I.e. what Biblical evidence do you have in favor of second-chance theology? That's my question.

luvluv I did start this thread in E of G but it was moved by a moderator!!

love
Helen

love
Helen

Tercel

Oh, okay. (I've posted some evidence on the matter a couple of times on different threads and I simply assumed you'd read it.)

Well, believers with saving faith are saved, are they not?
What about those who lived before Jesus?
What about those who've lived since, but never heard the gospel?
What about those who've heard the gospel in a distorted form?
What about those who were open to belief, but never came across sufficient evidence to convince them of the truth?
Of course, this basically all boils down to one question: what exactly is required to be saved?

Now one answer is that only those who are believers can be saved, and one of my (fundamentalist) friends extends this also to those who came before Jesus: They are saved if and only if they believed God would send a messiah to save them.
This sort of thing might be okay if one was a Calvinist, but otherwise it seems that God is creating a lot of people who have no possible way of ever being saved: A theology which I see as unacceptable outside a Calvinist view (which I am not really prepared to hold).

The question of exactly what is required for salvation is never clearly answered in the Bible to my satisfaction.
There are several passages saying "X is sufficient to salvation", but can these be read as meaning that if you don't meet X then you won't be saved? I'm inclined to think not - since many of them would seem to contradict one another if you did that.
The only passage, to my knowledge that says "Y is sufficient to damnation" is Mark 16:16, which is in a section that in all probability is a later addition to the Gospel.

In Paul's preaching to the Athenians as described in Acts, he in no way implies that the athenians before now were going to hell, or that if the current ones didn't listen to him they would be damned. Rather, he interestingly says that God has "overlooked" (literally "winked at") the times people did not know him.

The theme that Christ died for all is also repeated several times in the NT (Romans 5:18-19; 2 Cor 5:14,15, 19; 1 John 2:2 et al). How are people who have never heard the Gospel supposed to benifit from Christ's death? Is there something that happens without them doing anything, or can they hear the gospel after death?

There is a rather cryptic passage in Peter:

1 Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[4] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built....

1 Peter 4
1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6<strong>For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead</strong>, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Now, historically interpretation of this passage has been mixed. (I think this passage was also the source of the idea that Jesus descended into hell between his death and his resurrection.) But there have been some fairly prominent interpreters who've taken this to refer to some sort of chance to receive the gospel after death.

The possibility of such seems to be a reasonable solution to the other problems: It sufficiently explains how Christ's death can benifit all, it explains Paul's speech and explains how God isn't simply creating a lot of people for the sole purpose of condemning them to hell.

I'm not certain on the matter and can hardly claim infallibility of interpretation, but that's my 2c.

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

wordsmyth

I can't seem to reconcile these two passages...

John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 8
15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

Apparently neither God nor Jesus can make up their mind on who is going to judge. I guess I wouldn't want to be responsible for sending people to eternal damnation either.

Waitaminute... I got it! Maybe its the Holy Spirit that judges us. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Marduk

Whatever Church Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong built was very big on this second chance after death business, they'd claim it is impossible to repent in this life, you still have a body etc. & can still be tempted or slip up or whatever, it is only after you die does JC ask if you want his pardon.
They were sort of cool, believed that Jesus was married to Mary Mag. had kids, they followed all the Jewish holidays because JC did, hell is for demons & Satan only, not humans, their only drawback that I can remember was that they were Young Earthers.

HelenM

Thanks for explaining, Tercel

I had not read your explanation on other threads; excuse me if I asked you to repeat yourself. Next time feel free to give me a link to another thread rather than writing something out again!

I've been through similar "see if I can make the Bible say something other than what orthodox Christians believe" reasoning. I can relate to that. If you or I believe it's Divinely inspired we can even say it means other than the original authors believed. God had them write things that read differently to us than they even were intended by the authors. Who knows. But if all I am doing is using it to justify whatever I believe, no matter how far I have to stretch it, then...well, then...why am I even using it at all? To persuade myself I'm 'a Christian'? Because I have the only 'true' interpretation?

I didn't really feel happy where I was going, when I was trying to demonstrate that the Bible really means something other than most Christians have believed for centuries. That's not to say I'm entirely happy with what they believe either - but it was no better, to go off on my own...

That's not supposed to be some indirect criticism of what you believe. It's just about me, where I was at...how I felt/feel about it...what you wrote reminded me of it, that's all.

love
Helen

Fastfalcon

Let me see if I can answer your questions.
in Romans 3:23, it says that All have sinned fall short of the glory of God. this leaves no wiggle room. it says that All have sinned. that means you have sinned, I have sinned, even the Pope has sinned. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. wages in this context means punishment. it is not the first death but the second death (i.e. being thrown into the lake of fire. Read Revelation 19 onwards.) the first death is just ordinary dying. BUT, God did not want us to perish but for all to come to repentance. Now you are asking about those who have not heard the gospel. Lots of Christians ask too. I think that in some point they will hear the gospel (probably when Jesus comes back) and will make the decision to either accept or reject Jesus. Long, I know, but I just want to try to answer your questions.

HelenM

Thanks for the answer

What about the people who've already died though?

Do you mean they'll be resurrected and hear the gospel, when Jesus comes back?

love
Helen

leonarde

posted by wordsmyth: If I remember the contexts, the first passage is
about ultimate things: the Final Judgement in the
afterlife.
The second has to do with making judgements in the here-and-now that the Pharisees, and not just
the Pharisees, were prone to....

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: leonarde ]</p>

Bubbly

Read this article a long time ago...you may be interested as it pertains to your subject...peace

Bubbly

<a href="http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm</a>

(there is the website the article is on)