GeoTheo

Helen,
getting a way from hyperbole- There either is a god or there is not. I don't see a middle ground.

GeoTheo

On a human level- the things we have in common are things that don't ultimately matter. That is why at parties it is good to avoid discussing religion and politics. If you leave those out you just have small talk. Stuff that is "safe" to talk about because no one really cares.

philechat

Why? Difference in opinion is often stimulating and conducive to knowledge and truth. I doubt an unanimous agreement of any texts to be the true way of attaining knowledge.
So you will not discuss the Bible with atheists because they "lack" the necessary wisdom? But you and a Pagan could both discuss Greek texts without losing the "necessary" wisdom in them? Could it be possible that we lack the necessary wisdom for Pagan texts because we do not believe in their gods? Do not think all atheists to not be knowledgeable of the Christian mindset--given the number of ex-Christian atheists I will think a good number of them know what it meant to be a Christian.

And stop waxing mystical about the "exclusive wisdom" crap. Every person's consciousness is in some sense different from another person. If it meant therefore we cannot understand the "truths" of another person's mindset then it is no better between different Christians as it is between a Christian and an atheist.

HelenM

Well...what about pantheism and panentheism? What about definitions such as "God = the ground of our being"? Do people who believe that believe in God or not?

Helen

GeoTheo

Philecat:
Perhaps I wouldn't mind discussing some Bible verses with you.
If you want we can go over the "Stoning the child" verse in another topic. Then ex-xian can contribute if he wants.
But what exactly are we debating here? The Bible is a bunch of non-sense versus the Bible is the word of God based on this verse? How could we debate that? We could get into the culture of ancient jews and surrounding cultures and so forth but that is not going to get to the point of whether it is inspired or not. Ex-xian is contending that it is not inspired because it is too brutal to be inspired by God. How do I approach that question. What is his standard for how God is like? He is an atheist. He has no position to defend and so is free to attack mine from all angles. I don't see that it would be a fruitfull discussion. Also as far as two people discussing Zeus etc. that don't believe in Greek gods- They are studying Greek culture through the text. That is all they are doing. They are not trying to gain any insights into the nature of Zeus. they don't believe in Zeus.

As far as exclusivity of wisdom here is what I think:
There are foundational principles. From them you move on. If you don't start with the same foundation the further you go on the less you have in common.

philechat

We don't believe in Hamlet either, but we can try to understand the nature of Hamlet through the work of Shakespeare. I doubt people who lack beliefs in the existence of Hamlet has any bearing to their understanding of Hamlet's character given the texts of Shakespeare.

As I said, to suppose atheists must necessarily not understand the knowledge in the Bible is silly. Some atheists (such as Brahms and Verdi) even composed musical pieces based entirely on the sentiments in the Bible that are not only impressive, but pregnant with understanding of the Biblical texts. Factual existence is secondary to insightful interpretations in my opinion.

Not necessarily. Every sub-division of Christianity is based on a different foundation. There is no additional requirement in Christianity except on the belief in Jesus as a divine figure.

GeoTheo

Well, suppose you are right. Suppose pantheism is the middle ground between atheism and Christianity. Should Christians become pantheists in order to be more like atheists and seek common ground? I think the likely result of trying to find common ground with an atheist is that the Christian will lose his faith.
By that I mean trying to find common ground between Christianity and atheism. I think you can talk about fishing and common hobbies etc. or your kids and things like that.
But loss of the Christian Faith is the ultimate end of trying to reconcile the two. I know you don't like hyperbole, but I think nothingness really does describe atheism. Nothingness swallows things up after eroding them away. That is what happens to Christians that post on here. There beliefs get eroded.
In the Christian Faith nothingness is somthing to be greeted with violence. Light is violent toward nothingness.
So, like I said people have their humanity in common. You have to respect that part, love the human part of people. But If within their souls they have a void-a nothingness, where the Christian has Light. You should not seek to reconcile your light with their darkness. That is death.

GeoTheo

Let's look at it Mathmatically:
Atheist represented by '0' because they have no belief in God.
Christian represented by '1' because they have a belief in God.
Trying to find "common ground" is represented by averaging.
The average of 1 and 0 is .5
Then you could perhaps seek to find more common ground.
the average of .5 and 0 is .25
Each time you do this the Christian loses ground.
The atheist does not gain .5 of a belief in God in these exchanges.
zero is zero.
Belief in God is from a supernatural creative act on the part of God. There is nothing to be gained in finding common ground

philechat

Before you can exercise your imagination a bit I suppose we do not have common ground. Black-and-white thinking is the antithesis of knowledge--in knowledge we welcome disagreement and uncertainties. People might become more understanding of each other only after they get rid of their moral hang-ups and prejudices.

"The difference between a thinker and a professor is the thinker's acceptance of paradoxes"

~Kierkegaard

GeoTheo

Philicat:
It is easy for you to accuse Christians of being close minded and dogmatic. But harder for you to prove that you are engaged on a search for truth. Not saying you aren't. But merely by professing atheism all you are stating is that you don't believe somthing. There are no claims attatched to it that you are interested in truth. I still think that position represents a zero mathematically.