Jobar

He concedes that if Christianity is false, then belief in Christianity is not warranted.

So, to prove that Christianity is true, you must first assume that Christianity is true.

How utterly convenient...

Asha'man

Good question. This is how I would respond:

If you pray in Rome, you probably find out that Jesus is real. But if you pray in Tel Aviv, you learn that Yahweh is real. If you are praying in Riyadh, Allah is real. And what answer do you expect in New Delhi? (Krishna perhaps?) How about Lhasa, Tibet?

Travel back in time to ancient Rome, and your prayers would confirm that Zeus was in charge. Looking at ancient Thebes, your prayers would find Ra.

Everywhere you go, a different answer. Some might be considered compatible, but others are clearly not. All these people finding “truth” via prayer, but none of them finding the same truth, only what their culture expects them to find.

I would suggest that the devil is whispering in everybody’s ear, and therefore prayer confirms nothing.

Jolimont

Just a head's up: I was a Mormon missionary many moons ago (and a damn good one at that) so let me tell you a couple things:

1. They are bringing in a local member who is a lawyer. That means they see you as great convert material. They will try to butter you up until you are flattered and consider them like friends.

2. People don't convert to mormonism because it's true or logical. They convert because the missionaries are so damn nice and they FEEL great about it. It'll be all about your feelings. If you are in a vulnerable place emotionally right now you may want to avoid them, because they do hook people, even atheists are not safe with great missionaries!

camerontigris

I can believe that. And I certainly got that impression last night. It was a very "feel good" session. They were very complimentary about the fact that I seemed to be such a NICE atheist. Unfortunately for them I'm also a perfectly happy and content atheist...so they had no emotional handholds to work with.

They did a few things that I found a bit CREEPY. At one point the Mormon lawyer, Jim, quoted something at me: "...and the Lord God said, even faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains." He then proceeded to talk about planting that mustard seed of faith in my heart. OUCH!! But the suggestion was that faith would "grow on me." So not only do I get the warm fuzzies from the actual session, but if I am ever in the emotional Grand Canyon, I've got this seed thing to think about and the whole support system of the Mormons to bring my atheist a#$ to god's gate. Can we collectively say: Brainwashing?! And VERY efficient I might add. They don't have to do a thing now, just sit around and wait for my self-esteem to head south. I almost admire the practicality of the thing.

As to the god question: very disappointing! I wrote up a list of questions of the usual suspects such as Occam's Razor and laying heavy on the burden of proof. But it kept going back to doctrine and personal experiences. What became abundantly clear was that neither of the Mormon heavy hitters had ever confronted the possibility of the non-existence of god. The only troubling matter for them was the choice of doctrine in their search for religious meaning. I don't think they even understood the point of the arguments I was making. Obviously I wasn't conviced - but what an interesting attempted brain washing session! I highly recommend it.

Jolimont

Yes, the mustard seed of faith was a very effective trick in my conversion to mormonism when I was 15yo. It's found in Alma 32 in the book of mormon. One of the few chapters worth reading actually! There are many other techniques, but I'm encouraged by the fact that you saw right through that one!

Amie

Hi beastmaster
just out of curiosity have you ever asked yourself "at the end of all of this what if i am wrong?"

Infinity Lover

Sorrie for the off topic interruption folks.

Amie, hallo lieve schat. Your , Mailbox is full, and your phone is off the hook.

diana

I don't believe we've been formally introduced, but I've watched your doings on this board for a while. Nice to see another polite theist about.

I know you didn't ask me, but I have. The answer is, and has been for many years, that if I am, then God should have thought about that before he created me with intellect, self-awareness, and free will, because I have logically arrived where I am today using the gifts he gave me.

The bible has a nice parable about servants who are given talents by their master; the only one who is castigated is the one who is afraid, and does not use what he's been given. Hence, according to scripture (Xn scripture, anyhow), I am required to use the talents I've been given.

But even without that passage, I can't imagine a god creating me with a brain, then requiring me to not use it.

Have you asked yourself, "At the end of all this, what if I'm wrong?"

d

Amie

Hi diana, thanks!
yes people are free to draw our own conclusions...
absolutely.
However there are certain things that lead me to believe I am not wrong just as their are certain things to make you draw conclusions that you are not wrong. Maybe wrong is not such an appropriate word, different seems a better expression. I believe in angels and I believe that I have seen one. I can't talk myself out of my experience. I know what I saw. but most definitely I question certain things. I may have my own set of beliefs and I am not so quick to believe anything and everything which was taught to me as a catholic.

One of the reasons I asked the question is because many times I read where people will write how believers are delusional, idiots, morons and this is all a myth and while I think having confidence in oneself and ones beliefs are a positive thing it seems to me if one feels compelled to let others know how delusional they are for having a different belief then what does the person making that claim. I really dont know. I try to understand where people are coming from and ultimately my "right" is only right for me and is very wrong for others while whats right for you is right for you but not for me. I dont think your beliefs are any better, I dont think my beliefs are any better, any superior or any less. Just different.
Take care diana~
Amie