David Gould

If God exists, there is no reason to be moral. You are not judged on your deeds - all you need to do is sincerely repent and you go to heaven. And i'd be pretty damn sincere at the end of my life if I believed in heaven and hell.

babelfish

Morality Without God 101:

Ask yourself - is this action liable to hurt me or another human being?

You can apply this to pedophilia (you are hurting a child). You can apply it to cheating on a college exam (you are hurting yourself in the long run). You can apply it to cheating on your husband (you are hurting your spouse).

The problem that Christians have with this type of God-free morality is usually related to sexual issues. Homosexuality, "living in sin," premarital sex, birth control, masturbation, etc., etc. It is difficult to clearly show how these actions hurt you or another human being. This is often when the religionists' so-called "objective morality" - morality that is "God-center rather than man-centered" - is trotted out.

Next time you hear a Christian getting red-in-the-face about immorality, "sins of the flesh," notice how they are usually referring to something having to do with sex.

case

I think the best reply I have heard to this argument is the simpilest:

If there were no god, would you rape/steal/murder?

If yes, this is a comment on your moral character. If no, then you can be moral without god.

For the life of me I can't remember where I read this. If anyone knows, please let me know.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: case ]</p>

darwinspetmonkey

I agree. Where theists and atheists tend to disagree most on ethics/morality is on issues of sex. Most atehist would agree with the theist that it is unethical to steal, murder and destroy anothers property. The christians on the other hand believe there is some kind of moral weight to sexual behavior whaterver the real world consequences might be. The atheist tends to think that whatever ethical weight is attached to sexual behavior is a function of its cosequences. For example to the christian homosexualiy or premarital sex are immoral in and of themselves. To an atheist the acts themselves carey no moral weight devoid of the consequences. Homosexual behavior among loving consenting adults who take all needed precautions may be fine, but a homosexual who pretends to be straight, gets married and then cheats on his wife with lots of men could be considered unethical because he is lying both to himself and his wife and possibly exposing her to STDs. As O told my homphobic dad once "I don't care if the guy next door is humping some dude as long as it donesn't drown out my TV."

babelfish

DPM,

If you haven't yet, you owe it to yourself to read "Letters from the Earth" by Mark Twain.

He does a highly enjoyable, hilarious job of skewering religion, the Bible, and biblical morality.

Gregorius

Purely seen as an individual without any relations or obligations it might seem as you could choose your own morals - it would seem as there is little difference between Hitler and Gandhi without an afterlife.

My opinion in this is that the keyword "individual" points out the problem. No one is only an individual, you have all sorts of relationships that you care about. How many relatives of Hitler have you heard of bragging about it?

Most people would do almost anything for their children, and being hated by the rest of the world is not the best way to make them happy.

Normally you are also a part of a family or a tribe that you might even be prepared to die for. Is that not enough for motivating people to "be good" without a heaven or a hell?

babelfish

Gregorius, your post reminds me why morality can't in reality be reduced to "Just don't hurt other people and you'll be moral."

So here is Advanced Morality Without God:

Although in most cases you should not harm another human being, if your life or the life of your family or other human beings you care about is threatened, it is perfectly fine to hurt or even kill another human being.

The Other Michael

Hi Babelfish,

let's say you and your family catch the horrible collywobbles from Mars, a disease so virulent that if the carrier of it isn't completely incinerated before the 24 hour incubation period is up it immediately spreads via an unknown method to 30,000 people within a 10,000 mile radius.

If the medical authorities come out to euthanize and incinerate you and your family before the incubation period is up are you justified in killing the authorities?

Yes, I'll grant that's an extremely unlikely hypothetical situation, but it's something that I thought of immediately upon reading your post.

And I'm not saying that protecting your loved ones couldn't justify homicide. Rather, I think I'm trying to say that it is just a bit overly general.

Or maybe I'm trying to say something else - sometimes it's hard to figure out WHAT I'm trying to get across!

cheers,
Michael

babelfish

It's strange that you should have thought of such an out-of-this-world type scenario. Why didn't you just ask me about some real-world scenarios like Ruby Ridge or Waco? That's what immediately came to my mind when I read your post.

Of course I was generalizing. To be honest, I always feel way out of my league when I'm trying to formulate in my own mind any arguments regarding "God-free morality." All I know is that in most cases I would fight tooth and nail for my family. Wouldn't you?

dk

This is a structural question answered by Aquinas. There is the: [*]Eternal Law: derived directly from God's nature, hence eternal in nature. [*]Divine Law: that lead people to God through grace, [*]Natural Law: the order and majesty of the physical universe[*]Moral Law: the tension of good and evil that permits people to participate with God's Will.
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Morality doesn't get anybody to heaven but is suited to human nature, hence coersive. Gods nature is consenant with human purposes because mankind was created in God's image. An athiest is suited to moral law because they have free will and reason. Atheists believe free will and reason are sufficient, hence the preoccupation with utopia, fame, and heaven on earth. The 20th Century was racked, quartered and drawn by atheistic notions of a godless utopia. The post modernist world is racked by scheptism; and utopian rationalist dogma.