LianaLi

I wouldn’t do it. Technically, whatever you do comes back upon you three times, right? Any number of things could conceivably go wrong with a spell like that, it could work, but to balance it out it might cause you to dislike like them three times as much as the come to like you. Since you’re doing it without their knowledge, it seems to me like a lot of shady dealing because you’re tampering with what affects a person without prior knowledge or consent. It’s not like a surprise party, where you’re supposed to do the unexpected without their knowledge, it’s a bit more like deciding a situation for them, without asking what they would prefer. That’s just my spin on it, though. Two, I suck at spell casting anyways, and wouldn’t even consider casting a “real” spell without someone to guide me, or having resumed practice until I felt confident of myself and my abilities.
So, in short, yeah.

I’m a lonely little pagan in a strong, catholic family. I simply don’t practice much at all, and by extension really haven’t learned all that much about the roots and history of paganism. Finding those links for Kally was probably as educational for me as it was for her.

I’d have to go with solitary practice, for now. I don’t have too many options about practicing openly. (Yeah, can you all just see my super-devout, religious freak of a Catholic father reacting well at all to my declaration of paganism? I thought not. J ) I’d like to see what a “real,” more active coven was like before I made any declarations for preference, however. If anything, it would be educational for me.

And ye harm none, do what ye will. I'm very lax in what I practice or assert. One, because I’m lazy. Two, because getting found out has too many headache consequences. I’m sure my parents would probably try to have me exorcised, not unlike Mad Kally’s experience, I’m sure.

I suppose I turned to wicca/paganism simply because it was the first thing I ran across that explained certain things for me, and didn’t assert I was demon possessed or insane.


-Liana

brighid

§ "An' ye harm none, do what ye will" (from the Wiccan Rede) - do you take this statement to mean that performing a spell against the knowledge - and perhaps against the wishes - of another person (i.e. a love spell to bind another human being to you) to be wrong?

BRIGHID: Basically, I agree with this principle. However, I don’t believe it is possible to cause no harm in all cases. Sometimes you must kick a little ass and in the case of someone attempting to cause harm to another, that person may be harmed in the process – not physically, but perhaps emotionally or financially. For instance, if someone were to perform a ritual to prevent an abusive boyfriend from raping or beating her, and this man were to be arrested – this obviously would cause him harm and the ritual would be performed without his knowledge. One must always use the most ethical approach in life, and it is no different in ones desires for others and be mindful of the greater good, placing selfish desires out of the mix. I think it is absolutely wrong to attempt to bind another person and thereby going against the free will of another (which I believe is impossible). If you perform a binding for love it will back fire – it is false and deceptive and why would any one want another person to love them under false pretenses or coercion. Performing a ritual that is for the betterment of an individual, perhaps for a healthy pregnancy, a prosperous year, for wisdom or deeper understanding I don’t have a problem with. For instance, the women in my coven are very anxious for me to get pregnant but they know that my husband and I aren’t quite ready for that. And although they desire this for me and we have performed rituals for abundance and fertility (not just that of my ovaries) they would not do something against my wishes.

§ What do you think about the different 'traditions' within the Old Religion? For example, several traditions claim to be the "real" Old Religion from which all modern paganism (including Wicca) stems - the "Faery" tradition, the "Druid" tradition, and the "Avalon" tradition (I was of the latter) are prominent on this list. Do any of you follow these traditions (for non-pagans: these are the Catholicisms of the pagan world - for example, as a priestess of the Avalonian tradition, I underwent a 4 year long training session which was VERY intense).

BRIGHID: I have no problem with different traditions. I don’t believe that most pagan traditions can factually trace back their practices because so much knowledge has been destroyed through out the centuries. I also believe paganism is far more creative and free flowing then other religions and should remain so. I am drawn to Celtic mythology and folklore primarily because of my heritage. My mothers side of the family stems from the Isle of Man and also have strong British and French roots. I think each person should be allowed the freedom of expression and thought to create a path that best suits his or her needs. I think the problem comes in when egos take over and begin creating spurious traditions that aren’t based upon concrete evidence and when arguing begins about who is “real” and who is not.

§ As a followup to the above question - do you believe in solitary or coven practise? Why do you prefer one over the other?

BRIGHID: I participate in each. Now that I have moved farther from the coven location it is difficult for me to get to every full moon and sabbats. Also, each of us has varying schedules and we are not always able to celebrate say on a Wednesday (if a Sabbat falls thusly) because we work, our children are in school, we are going to school, one of our children or spouses is ill, or other obligations stand in our way. Each member of our coven is primarily solitary but also an active member of the group. Participation in the coven is not mandatory and each of us is respectful of each other’s limitations. We enjoy getting together and when we do it is a very uplifting experience. We are also not all from the same tradition. One of our members is Strega. She is an Italian woman who has been raised in that tradition. Two of the members of our coven (myself and the Crone) are atheists. Our priestess still participates in a liberal Catholic Church. Another member prefers the “Faery” tradition. I tend to incorporate ideas and meditations from many different traditions (not all pagan) where others prefer a more pure Celtic approach. Therefore I suppose we are quite the eclectic bunch.

§ Many followers of the "old" tradition scorn neo-paganism because of the supposed lack of rules and training needed in order to be a practitioner. As I mentioned above, my coven required strict 4 year training to reach the level of priestess - we thought ourselves thoroughly initiated too. If you are a solitary or neo-pagan, what kind of rules do you set down for yourself as a pagan?

BRIGHID: Again, I don’t think it is proper for other groups or traditions to dictate to others how stringent their requirements should be. In order to be initiated into the group you had to pass a year and a day, you were asked a number or questions (among other things that shall remain secret) and given the opportunity to choose not to become initiated, but continue as a participating guest. This past year has not been very active for with wedding planning, purchasing a new home and moving, so I have not taken the next steps to become a 2nd degree initiate, nor have those requirements been given to me. I must first indicate my readiness and have it determined by the Priestess and Crone if they feel I am ready for the next step.

§ Are you eclectic? If so, from what traditions do you draw from?

BRIGHID: I draw from Native American traditions (my family is also Sioux and Cherokee) and many eastern traditions. I use yoga a lot in my meditations and have performed rituals with Lakshami as the patron goddess and Kali Ma. I allow my instinct to lead me to what I feel would be the proper elements for a ritual and most is done ad lib. No two rituals are alike. I find I work best in smaller groups, with people I trust. I find a group of three (two including myself) to be most comfortable.
I think many groups are loosely formed because there isn’t always a structured group in ones area to participate with or learn from. Many groups are formed with no formal leadership established and a priestess simply evolves. Often it takes years of hard work to get a coven to be a well oiled machine so to speak. Also, because there is still quite the stigma and often time harassment and persecution of those who follow the pagan path, many are reluctant to reach out to others. One must be able to implicitly trust the members of the group, their spouses and even the children if they are involved with ritual or celebrations (as ours are.)

I think it is wonderful that some are able to create and participate in well structured groups that have long and intense initiation processes. However, that isn’t available to many and many aren’t willing to risk the exposure in their communities. So, all in all I think those who have a problem with looser groups should back off and feel thankful they have what they have. If the pagan path becomes dogmatic and overly structured we fall into the destructive path of the religions we have run from. I think the pagan path should remain open to personal interpretation, worship, with absolute emphasis on free thought and expression.

Brighid

Bree

Hopefully I didn't come across as dogmatic. In my training, we were taught to be that way, and I am not proud of it - I too believe that if someone chooses to worship, then you have the perfect right to worship as you wish. I agree that if paganism (goddess forbid!!) becomes dogmatic, it will risk becoming like every other religion - a struggle for power.

brighid

No, I did not get the impression that you were being dogmatic. I applaud the course you have taken. It shows dedication and a commitment to hard work. I am sure it was a tough road and that you have properly earned your status. I have heard about some groups getting pretty pissy about those who are trained in a different manner, in different traditions or who aren’t a witch or pagan by hereditary. I really dislike that aspect of the movement. Although I really enjoy the free style nature of my group, there are times that I desire more structure. We are working on that. Rules are necessary and should be observed. But I don’t think prejudice should come into the mix about who has the right way – sounds too much like Christianity and other religions.

I would personally enjoy learning about your experience in the four years you spent progressing toward your present point.

I realize that you may not be able to share all of that. I know I have an oath of secrecy with my coven and I respect the oath others take to protect their ways and their members. But if there are general aspects you can share – please do. Or if you aren’t comfortable in a public forum you can send me a private email. I would enjoy talking about your experiences and sharing my own.

Blessed Be,
Brighid

Valmorian

Am I mistaken here, or is there actual serious belief that by "casting a spell" one can cause real world effects, including harm, to someone?

Do any of the wiccans here believe they can perform "REAL" magic?!

brighid

Some people believe that performing a spell actually works on another person. I personally do not, but as you well know some people believe in irrational things. As I have stated in other parts of this forum any “spell” work I participate in is strictly a meditative practice used to focus my personal desire on attainment of a personal goal. When the members of my coven and I work together in ritual it is again a way to focus our collective desires on personal goals and those for our group. I believe our desires become thoughts, thoughts become actions and actions lead to results. When our thoughts aren’t focused it is difficult to gain a desired outcome. I personally prefer this path of meditation and affirmation rituals because I enjoy them and they work for me. I do not believe in any sky fairy or anthropomorphic god or goddess. I use the symbolic meaning of each deity as a focal point for a desired personal growth opportunity. To me, ritual and “spell” work is about creating the proper frame of mind to deal with a problem or reach a goal. To me, it is about focusing and harnessing my inner power and talents so that I might obtain a desired outcome.

There are people who will come to a pagan/wiccan/witch to have them develop a love spell that will “cause” someone else to fall in love with them. Some people will engage in doing this for their petitioner, but it is deceptive and false. 1st of all, a “spell” cannot make any one love another person. A proper love “spell” is one that constructed in such a way that reminds the person wishing to attract a mate that they must be open to the possibility of love, define their needs in a mate and focus his/her thoughts and actions on being the kind of person one can love.

Unfortunately, it’s not possible to change someone’s mind against his or her will. However, many people deceive others into believing this about them that aren’t true and therefore creating a false impression and perhaps a false sense of love. Any pagan who is sought out for any kind of “spell’ work needs to make this very clear to the petitioner and make them understand that any ritual is for the improvement of self and manifesting ones desires into reality. I can no more make someone love me than I can change a theists mind about belief in his or her god. That conclusion has to come about through ones own exploration.

This is not to say that some pagans don’t believe that spell work is “magical” or supernatural. I have had some pretty freaky experiences that I cannot explain during circle, but I remain skeptical and seek a natural explanation for them. I do believe in the possibility that more exists then we currently are able to measure, but again the evidence is lacking – however a girl can still hope.

Paganism/Wicca/Witchcraft is very diverse and it’s practically impossible to pin down a distinct set of beliefs held by a majority of its practitioners. Just as Atheists/Agnostics/Humanist has very similar characteristics but no real defined set of beliefs.


Brighid

LianaLi

To answer that, yes. A spell, like any ritual, can motivate someone to act on a certain belief, and that action can be potentially harmful. For example, if someone were to cast a love spell, they might act on the belief that the spell works. He or she may put the object of the spell in awkward social situations, like confronting them, verbally or physically. He or she may take up obsessive behaviors, constant phonecalls, stalking, ect, in the belief that the spell worked, and the other person is in love with them. In such a case, performing the spell strengthens their delusion, and is harmful.

Notice, that it does not touch on the issue of whether or not the spell has “power” but it does have power over a person’s beliefs, because they believe the spell has power. Wiccan practices emphasize awareness as much, maybe even moreso, than “power.” Hence, the rule of three, “and remember whatever you do comes back upon you three times.” By valuing that awareness of self and the effect of self on others, it establishes a moral code to abide by.


-Liana

brighid

Liana - I agree with you and you added some info I didn't express correctly.

Thank You,

Brighid.

Valmorian

</strong>

Ah, but if that's what you mean, then why talk of rituals at all? After all, it's the actions they perform, not the spell, that is responsible.

</strong>

But it is the delusion that the spell works that is causing the harm, and not the spell itself. There's nothing "magical" in any of this. That I can understand... I just find that there seems to be this odd belief in "magic" suggested in previous messages.

</strong>

Hm, well, in my experience, if you get 5 wiccans in a room together, you have 5 people with different views on what "wiccan practices" involve.

</strong>

This is also something that I've also found puzzling. This seems to be an irrational belief. What's the basis for it? Why three times? Why not five, or seven, or only twice? Hell, what reason is there to believe that your actions will ALWAYS cause a negative reaction at all? If you do something that causes harm to someone and are not caught, what basis is there to believe that you will get "punished" for it in the future?

</strong>

I'm all for treating others the way you wish to be treated, but I don't think it's necessary to resort to mysterious slogans to promote it, particularly when there's no rational reason to believe they are true.

LianaLi

I'll just adress a certain point you seem to be missing. Most of us here would NOT insist you believe in any sort of power going on behind a spell. I'll be the first one to say, you do not have to believe any of it.

Some might try to explain that belief is the only power one needs. Hence a spell=belief or an action reaffirming belief=power. That's fine.

This is what gets me. Why do you insist any of us "prove" magic or the supernatural, when no one is insisting that you, personally, have to believe in it? It's simply that, a belief. Please refer to the posts concerning the supernatural to see how I justify my belief in magic and other unexplainables.

Once again, I assert, I'm not asking you to believe in magic.

-Liana