Freethought & Rationalism Archive

snatchbalance · 08-19-2002, 05:03 AM

Splashing,

If you read through the thread you'll see that I have commented on these same ideas previously.

SB

Keith Russell · 08-19-2002, 06:34 AM

Greetings:

Antics with semantics.

Everything in this debate rests on how 'human' is defined.

Keith.

Bible Humper · 08-19-2002, 09:15 AM

Hello SB,

Quote:

However, accutally turning a human into a "machine" is still the stuff of science fiction. Theory is way, way ahead of practice.

This is the closest I could find to an objection to what I wrote. Perhaps you dealt with this idea in another thread, such as the A.I. thread, so I quess I'll look around.

snatchbalance · 08-21-2002, 11:31 AM

BH/S

Quote:

If the inorganic brain is identical in every way to the organic brain besides being inorganic?

Would an inorganic(metal/silicon) brain need to be fed a supply of oxygenated blood, or O2 at all for that matter?

sb

Bible Humper · 08-24-2002, 02:48 PM

Just noticed that you answered my last post here, Snatchbalance.

You believe that oxygen is required for consciousness? Is this the hindu concept of Prana(sp?)?

08-28-2002, 06:08 AM

Snatchbalance,

Quote:

1. If you build a machine that is consciuos, it will know that it is a machine. It will have no reason to have biological drives. It won't really need food, air, sex, etc. You can simulate these needs all you want, they remain simulations. Get it?

If we emulated a human brain on a computer, it couldn�t possibly know that it was a computer unless we gave it information to that effect. There is every reason to believe that concious computers would be, to paraphrase Minsky, every bit as confused and inconsistent about intelligence as we are.

Why People think Computers Can�t. By Marvin Minsky:
<a href="http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/ComputersCantThink.txt" target="_blank">http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/ComputersCantThink.txt</a>

Of particular interest is the question of whether humans are truly self-aware. I think it is a very appropriate response to you very strage suggestion that a concious computer would necessarily be aware of it's silicone nature.

Quote:

2. We really are dealing in fantasy at this piont. None of what you describe is even remotely possible.

As far as it is possible to tell, the functional organization of the brain is the necessary and sufficient condition for consciousness. Clearly if function is not necessary or not sufficient for consciousness (ether condition is highly implausible given what we currently know about perception), it is you who must indicate how we could know this.

Regards,
Synaesthesia

snatchbalance · 08-28-2002, 07:42 AM

S

Quote:

If we emulated a human brain on a computer, it couldn’t possibly know that it was a computer unless we gave it information to that effect

Well, the people around the computer might tell it that it is not human. You would have to feed it a complete virtual environment.

SB

snatchbalance · 08-28-2002, 07:46 AM

S

Quote:

As far as it is possible to tell, the functional organization of the brain is the necessary and sufficient condition for consciousness. Clearly if function is not necessary or not sufficient for consciousness (ether condition is highly implausible given what we currently know about perception), it is you who must indicate how we could know this.

Yes, but you ignore the salient section of my post; therory is way ahead of practice. We know what is required to make a round trip manned tour of the solar system, but is it realist to think we can accually do it? All scifi stuff.

SB

snatchbalance · 08-28-2002, 07:53 AM

BH/S

Quote:

You believe that oxygen is required for consciousness? Is this the hindu concept of Prana(sp?)?

no, not at all. But an organic brain needs O2, a metal/silicon brain does not. Such a brain would have no reason to avoid a O2 deprrived state, like an organic brain does. This is but one example of the differences between the types of consciounes that could arise from different types of brains.

SB

09-01-2002, 12:11 AM

Snatch,

Quote:

But an organic brain needs O2, a metal/silicon brain does not. Such a brain would have no reason to avoid a O2 deprrived state, like an organic brain does. This is but one example of the differences between the types of consciounes that could arise from different types of brains.

This of course is a functional difference. Emulating a human brain functionally would be ridiculously complicated for reasons like this.

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08-19-2002, 05:03 AM	#71
snatchbalance Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CT Posts: 333	Splashing, If you read through the thread you'll see that I have commented on these same ideas previously. SB

08-19-2002, 06:34 AM	#72
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Antics with semantics. Everything in this debate rests on how 'human' is defined. Keith.

08-24-2002, 02:48 PM	#75
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Just noticed that you answered my last post here, Snatchbalance. You believe that oxygen is required for consciousness? Is this the hindu concept of Prana(sp?)?

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