Calzaer

Matthew 12:37? For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If that's too vague, how about 16:27? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

19:17 also has things you're supposed to DO... If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 10:26-28 has more things you're supposed to DO: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

John 5:29 implies works are necessary as well. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

James 2:14 would seem to answer the question beyond doubt: What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Similarly, 2:17 states Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. and 2:21-25 reads Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Finally, Peter 1:17 tries to resolve the issue with finality: The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work.

If that's not "saved by works", I don't know what is. But Paul says different... most of the time. Romans 2:6, 13 implies otherwise, as well as 2 Corinthians 5:10 and 11:15, but those are VERY out of character for him. Makes me wonder what he was smoking that day.

YHWHtruth

Cal this was covered in detail on an earlier post, about works/faith.

Cal, I don't know why you keep presenting me with opportunities to correct you before everyone, but in your attempt to justify yourself you have only succeeded in making things worse. In your parenthetical comment above you make an inaccurate claim in your attempt to create further confusion over the accuracy of what I wrote, which I assume is done to create the impression that there is some legitimate reason for your misunderstanding.

Max

EstherRose

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

The only words that matter are whether or not one has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

Matthew 16:27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

The bible speaks of rewards in heaven such as crowns which will then be thrown at God’s feet/throne to give Him greater glory.

Matthew 19
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
19Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I believe the point of this passage was not to state that obeying the commandments gave one eternal life, but rather that because we can’t obey Mosaic law fully, the only way to heaven was the grace of God. With God, all things are possible.

Luke 10
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Total devotion, again part of Mosaic law. With Jesus’ death and resurrection Mosaic law does not apply, only the salvation offered by God to mankind through Jesus Christ.

John 5
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

By taking only the one verse, the meaning changes. When read in context, the verse becomes clearer. Verse 24 and 25 specifically state belief alone gives one eternal life. With belief, our sins are erased, so we have done good. Those who have done evil are those who do not accept Jesus.

James 2
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

The tail end of that passage is verse 26 which I think sums it up well. Other passages state that we can be known as believers by our good fruits. If our faith in the Lord was not genuine, we would not have the changed hearts that long to live holy lives. That is the meaning of verses 14 and 17 when taken with the concluding verse 26.

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

Compare this with

Acts 10:34-35
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

This passage shows that God does not equate salvation with one’s station in life or whether or not they are Jew or Gentile. This does not refer to judging salvation by works.

Romans 2
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Again this is about the acceptance or denial of Jesus as Lord and Saviour, the proof of which is seen in the fruits of the individual

2 Corinthians 5
5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

You want to focus on verse 5, taken out of context, whereas the whole passage shows that salvation is not taken away for we have the guarantee of the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 11
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Another verse out of context. Verse 15 does indeed speak of punishment for actions, yet the actions show that they have denied God’s gift of eternal life.

Javaman

Could you elaborate on this a bit. I think it's a pretty clear passage and I don't follow your answer.

I still don't buy this. I've not read anything anywhere that says the mosaic laws don't apply. I think it was easier to adopt Christianity in the Roman empire and to continue it into modern times without the inconveniance of these lenghthy restrictions. I wouldn't mind hearing your reasons why the laws don't apply, though.

EstherRose

Javaman, regarding the crowns in heaven:

Revelation 4
4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

While we don’t know the identity of these individuals or even exactly what the crowns represent, we do know these people overcame intense difficulties. The Greek word used for "crown" in this passage is stephanos: a victor’s crown. It is clear from the next passage that the crowns are not for our glory, but for God’s glory.

Revelation 4
9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."

The Crown of Righteousness: This crown is reserved for all who anxiously await the Lords return. In his later years Paul was more concerned with standing before the court of Heaven, than the court of Rome. Loving the appearing of the Lord assumes a lifestyle of obedience. Such faithfulness provides a platform of confidence as one awaits the soon return of the Lord.

2 Timothy 4
8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

The Crown of Glory: This crown is promised to whose who herd the flock of God. Godly shepherds worthy of reward are those who serve willingly rather than under compulsion. They model godly living rather than mandating it to their sheep. They recognize theirs is an entrusted stewardship for which they will give and account to the Chief Shepherd. Jesus of course, is the ultimate model of the God Shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep, and has become the Shepherd and Guardian of the soul of all believers.

1 Peter 5
2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

The Crown of Life: This is the crown awarded to those who remain faithful through trials. Two qualifications in these passages include the response of Joy, which comes from viewing trials as sent from the Lord intended as opportunities for growth and stability, as well as a love for the Lord, which motivates the faithful behavior. Spiritual forgetfulness will rob believers of their joy and raise the question of sincerity of their love. The crown of life for those who overcome spiritual battles.

James 1
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Revelation 2
10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 3
11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

The Crown of Rejoicing: This crown is the soul winner's crown. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and Joy". Evangelism of the lost is a deep desire of God and He has promised to reward those who will seek them on His behalf. Jesus taught the principle will in John 4. In the imagery of the reaper who will receive wages for his efforts at a later time, Jesus said that those believers engaged in active evangelism are gathering fruit for eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 2
19For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20Indeed, you are our glory and joy.

Philippians 4
1Therefore, my brothers, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, that is how you should stand firm in the Lord, dear friends!


(Just as a side note, I am not here to win souls for the promise of an eternal crown of rejoicing. I always figured I would be lucky just to be the doormat of heaven because of my sinful nature. I am here because you all challenge my knowledge of the bible. It helps bring to focus what I know, and how much I still need to learn.)

EstherRose

Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus fulfilled them when He died on the cross. Certainly the ceremonial aspects of the law are fulfilled in Jesus and there is no longer any need to do them. In following the law, our salvation would become a works based salvation instead of the gift of God’s grace.

Galatians 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Corinthians 5
7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Romans 8
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[1] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[2] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[3] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[4] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Romans 6
14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Galatians 5
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Galatians 6
15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

2 Corinthians 3
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

RED DAVE

That's a nice set of rationalizations for people who want to leave their religion. As to that works-based crap, under Judaism, the Law is, itself, a sign of God's grace.

Stop trying to convert Jews and mind your own business.

RED DAVE

EstherRose

I'm not trying to convert anyone. Questions were asked, and I answered them, the same as I would hope that someone would answer any questions I might ask.

Am I not welcome on this board?

RED DAVE

To EstherRose:

Sorry for my bad manners. I get a little tired of proselythizing. (Jews For Jesus are active in New York.)

Question, do nonconverted Jews (and others) go to hell. I mean those who are extremely knowledgeable about Jesus and reject him unequivocally?

RED DAVE

Javaman

Sorry to put you through so much work but you misunderstand what I'm asking. The reason Matthew 16:27 was posted by Calzaer is (correct me if I'm wrong) that is specifies works/deeds being necessary for entrance to heaven. That's why your earlier reply didn't make sense and especially your second. You seem fairly knowledgeable so I'd like to hear your take on it again.

I've checked about 10 different translations and it doesn't make any difference:

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward every man according to his works. {KJV21}