Freethought & Rationalism Archive

the_cave · 08-22-2003, 09:33 AM

just to add my two cents to the conversation...

A lot of this depends on whether you're an introvert or an extravert.

I'm an introvert (and a terrible snob--I admit it) and that means the idea of going to some place (like a popular club or bar) just so I can meet some people and maybe have a conversation with them strikes me as bizarre and oppressive. I enjoy getting away from people, so when they start coming at me, my spidey-sense starts tingling.

I mean, my god, there are people who go places just to meet and be around other people? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM???

This is what life feels like as an introvert...

Now I'm a well-adapted introvert, so sure, someone could make a few comments in my direction in a public place--standing in line, whatever--and that's fine, I can trade some amusing or polite words back. And then I hope to god that's the end of it...

So when complete strangers try to strike up conversations with me, I really don't know how to take it. I begin racing through the possibilities: "Are they trying to sell me someting?" "Is this a cult?" "Am I under arrest?" "Are they mentally ill? What is the problem here?" etc. The LAST thing that occurs to me is "Oh, maybe they want to get to know me." (Unless it's a guy, in which case I often think "Oh, he's hitting on me," first. Can't explain it, since I'm straight--maybe it's just because that actually happens with some frequency. What can I say.)

Now, ok, let's take an ideal situation: two introverts, in a public place, both find one another attractive, want to break the ice. So let's say I walk over and say hello. Now here's the second problem: as I mentioned above, I'm a terrible snob. So the chances that they're going to say something irritating or a turn-off or just a total deal-breaker are, well, higher than I would like. I realize this is something I need to work on...but the thing is, then I have to back out of something, and it's like "Ok, you know how I was all bold and interested just a few seconds ago? It's different now. Everything's changed. Can I please go away?" Which is embarrassing, and I'm sure terribly confusing for the other person. Why should I put them through that?

So anyway, to address the OP:

Buying a woman you've never met before a drink is definitely a signal that you're attracted to them. Sometimes attraction doesn't go anywhere, and guys definitely need to learn that. It's ok, folks! Buy the ladies a drink, have a conversation with them, and if they want to give you their number, fine--if they don't, wish them well. Very basic etiquette here...

And if they're attached, sure, that's a disappointment...in which case you've just completed a flirtation, it was fun, and that's what you paid for. That's all that's going on when you're trying to meet people at bars--flirtation. It's not like there're any contractual obligations going on...for Pete's sake. Like I say, I really don't go to bars or anything, because I find them somewhat hellish.

And yes ladies, you do need to be up front with guys at bars if you're attached, because the reason they're there is to meet you. They are not picking up interior decorating tips, for example. I'm sorry to say. It's just life, and it's just a fact. Accept it. And yes, it is VERY EASY TO SLIP INTO THE CONVERSATION. Jeez, I thought it was practically genetic! It's certainly something I listen for. And if they don't want to dance because you're attached, well, tough.

But to give the guys their due: FOR CRYING OUT LOUD WHY DON'T YOU JUST CHECK THE LEFT HAND! FIRST THING! THE LEFT HAND FOLKS! THE RING FINGER! IT'S EASY! (edited to add: there are exceptions to this, I admit)

Which brings me to one of my final thoughts: what the heck is up with this attitude of "oh, yeah, well, marriage--what sort of barrier is that"? I really don't think I suffer from a lack of self-esteem if I am really not interested in trying to pick up married women at a bar. I'm not trying to launch this into a discussion of marital ethics, and I'm not denying the existence of, for example, open relationships. I'm just saying--if you're married, I am DEFINITELY going to assume you're off-limits. Uh, pardon me, but isn't that like, extremely basic courtesy? So for you married ladies out there nevertheless looking to score (!?!), you definitely need to explain that up-front somehow. I honestly don't know how. You're on your own.

(And, finally it seems to me that if I were an attractive woman, I would indeed grow tired of gentlemen trying to strike up random conversations with me. So it's something I as a gentlemen try not to put them through. Call it chivalry, call it foolishness, it's just an assumption I make. But like I say: I'm an introvert.)

the_cave · 08-22-2003, 09:40 AM

ignore this

Graeme · 08-22-2003, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NHGH
If a perfect stranger approached me and asked me questions about what I was reading and what I liked about it, my gut reaction would be: "Who the f#!% are you and what the f#!% business is it of yours what I read or why?" Mind you, I wouldn't say that out loud for reasons of decorum, but I'd certainly be thinking it. As a stranger, it's not his/her place to ask such questions.

Of course, it's less intrusive to ask a stranger what they're reading than to ask them if they like it up the ass, but in my view both questions are boundary violations.

If I were asked this question by a perfect stranger my first reaction would be interest as to why they asked it. If they have a friendly look on their face I'd assume it's because they either have read it themselves or have heard about it somewhere.

I wouldn't consider it intrusive in the least, but I'm a guy, so maybe that changes the situation.

lisarea · 08-22-2003, 09:54 AM

No problem, BH. I believe you if you say you're not one of those guys.

All the same, the 'persistence' thing makes me a little uneasy. I think you'd have to have very finely tuned social skills to be able to tell the difference between someone who's just being a little wary or shy, as opposed to someone who really wants to be left alone. And it does sound like you are able to pick up on those kinds of cues. But it's definitely not for everyone.

christ-on-a-stick · 08-22-2003, 10:45 AM

Quote:

All the same, the 'persistence' thing makes me a little uneasy. I think you'd have to have very finely tuned social skills to be able to tell the difference between someone who's just being a little wary or shy, as opposed to someone who really wants to be left alone. And it does sound like you are able to pick up on those kinds of cues. But it's definitely not for everyone.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Confidence and assertiveness are good, but nothing bothers me more than an aggressive type of persistence. It strikes me as somewhat predatory and seeking to use intimidation.

Bible Humper · 08-22-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Confidence and assertiveness are good, but nothing bothers me more than an aggressive type of persistence. It strikes me as somewhat predatory and seeking to use intimidation.

I agree with everything you said here, great post.

You are absolutely right that these drunken pervs are trying to intimidate, hoping that the woman will just not have the will to resist him or something.

I guess for these guys, anything warm and female will do, with no care for whether or not she is into it too or will hate herself for it afterwards. Maybe they should just fuck their pillows instead, it will experience the same amount of enjoyment anyways and will be just about as responsive to him.

It isn't even a good % tactic for the pure machiavellian anyway, not to mention the distinct possibility of getting cold cocked by some dude who gets pissed off when he sees them being this way.

And thanks for confirming what I said about confidence and assertiveness, someone earlier was skeptical about that.

08-22-2003, 09:33 AM	#171
the_cave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 1,443	The Introvert Speaks just to add my two cents to the conversation... A lot of this depends on whether you're an introvert or an extravert. I'm an introvert (and a terrible snob--I admit it) and that means the idea of going to some place (like a popular club or bar) just so I can meet some people and maybe have a conversation with them strikes me as bizarre and oppressive. I enjoy getting away from people, so when they start coming at me, my spidey-sense starts tingling. I mean, my god, there are people who go places just to meet and be around other people? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM??? This is what life feels like as an introvert... Now I'm a well-adapted introvert, so sure, someone could make a few comments in my direction in a public place--standing in line, whatever--and that's fine, I can trade some amusing or polite words back. And then I hope to god that's the end of it... So when complete strangers try to strike up conversations with me, I really don't know how to take it. I begin racing through the possibilities: "Are they trying to sell me someting?" "Is this a cult?" "Am I under arrest?" "Are they mentally ill? What is the problem here?" etc. The LAST thing that occurs to me is "Oh, maybe they want to get to know me." (Unless it's a guy, in which case I often think "Oh, he's hitting on me," first. Can't explain it, since I'm straight--maybe it's just because that actually happens with some frequency. What can I say.) Now, ok, let's take an ideal situation: two introverts, in a public place, both find one another attractive, want to break the ice. So let's say I walk over and say hello. Now here's the second problem: as I mentioned above, I'm a terrible snob. So the chances that they're going to say something irritating or a turn-off or just a total deal-breaker are, well, higher than I would like. I realize this is something I need to work on...but the thing is, then I have to back out of something, and it's like "Ok, you know how I was all bold and interested just a few seconds ago? It's different now. Everything's changed. Can I please go away?" Which is embarrassing, and I'm sure terribly confusing for the other person. Why should I put them through that? So anyway, to address the OP: Buying a woman you've never met before a drink is definitely a signal that you're attracted to them. Sometimes attraction doesn't go anywhere, and guys definitely need to learn that. It's ok, folks! Buy the ladies a drink, have a conversation with them, and if they want to give you their number, fine--if they don't, wish them well. Very basic etiquette here... And if they're attached, sure, that's a disappointment...in which case you've just completed a flirtation, it was fun, and that's what you paid for. That's all that's going on when you're trying to meet people at bars--flirtation. It's not like there're any contractual obligations going on...for Pete's sake. Like I say, I really don't go to bars or anything, because I find them somewhat hellish. And yes ladies, you do need to be up front with guys at bars if you're attached, because the reason they're there is to meet you. They are not picking up interior decorating tips, for example. I'm sorry to say. It's just life, and it's just a fact. Accept it. And yes, it is VERY EASY TO SLIP INTO THE CONVERSATION. Jeez, I thought it was practically genetic! It's certainly something I listen for. And if they don't want to dance because you're attached, well, tough. But to give the guys their due: FOR CRYING OUT LOUD WHY DON'T YOU JUST CHECK THE LEFT HAND! FIRST THING! THE LEFT HAND FOLKS! THE RING FINGER! IT'S EASY! (edited to add: there are exceptions to this, I admit) Which brings me to one of my final thoughts: what the heck is up with this attitude of "oh, yeah, well, marriage--what sort of barrier is that"? I really don't think I suffer from a lack of self-esteem if I am really not interested in trying to pick up married women at a bar. I'm not trying to launch this into a discussion of marital ethics, and I'm not denying the existence of, for example, open relationships. I'm just saying--if you're married, I am DEFINITELY going to assume you're off-limits. Uh, pardon me, but isn't that like, extremely basic courtesy? So for you married ladies out there nevertheless looking to score (!?!), you definitely need to explain that up-front somehow. I honestly don't know how. You're on your own. (And, finally it seems to me that if I were an attractive woman, I would indeed grow tired of gentlemen trying to strike up random conversations with me. So it's something I as a gentlemen try not to put them through. Call it chivalry, call it foolishness, it's just an assumption I make. But like I say: I'm an introvert.)

08-22-2003, 09:40 AM	#172
the_cave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 1,443	whoops, double post ignore this

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08-22-2003, 09:54 AM	#174
lisarea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 5,550	No problem, BH. I believe you if you say you're not one of those guys. All the same, the 'persistence' thing makes me a little uneasy. I think you'd have to have very finely tuned social skills to be able to tell the difference between someone who's just being a little wary or shy, as opposed to someone who really wants to be left alone. And it does sound like you are able to pick up on those kinds of cues. But it's definitely not for everyone.

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