nermal

Yes, though not at my fingertips. I'll cite it later.

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Originally posted by Vandrare but this is a problem. it doesn't neccesarily help her survival chances, and could instead endanger her life even more.

No, this is an entirely different subject, and much debate continues about the presence of firearms in societies (correcting for other factors) and increased risk levels.

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Originally posted by Vandrare this is very true, but i feel if a woman is able to escape without using lethal force by instead stunning the attacker or knocking him out, then i think this option should ofcourse be chosen instead.

Were I in a victim situation, I would choose the most effective means of protecting myself period. I would make no considerations for the safety or comfort of my attacker. I believe to do so is ludicrous.

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Originally posted by Vandrare Now, for the really good news, if you are not associating with a certain kind of people or engaging in high risk behaviors, the odds of you being raped plummet close to zero.

Your chance of a kitchen fire is close to zero also. Still wise to have a fire extinguisher handy. It doesn't preclude safe cooking practices.

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Originally posted by Vandrare An overwhelming majority of sexual assaults occur between people who know one another, sometimes intimately, sometimes peripherally, but it is someone you have regular dealings with.

So? Does this make moot the question of self defense?

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Originally posted by Vandrare once again, the problem with this argument at the moment is people seem to assume rape will quite likely lead to murder - but carjacking, mugging, and any other crimes also have to potential to lead to murder while mostly not - and lethal force is not accepted in these situations.

Lethal force is certainly accepted in any situation where someone else is threatening your person, at least it is in the US. If someone is mugging you with a lethal weapon, and you kill him with a pistol, that is acceptable.
What is not acceptable, to me at least, is to hand over your right of self determination where your very life is concerned to someone as clearly untrustworthy as a rapist.
Maybe most rapes don't end in murder, but this one may. If you do not resist, the decision is the rapist's, not yours. That is abhorrent. Once the decision is made to resist, it should be with all the force at your disposal. If that is a gun, great. If you had the foresight to have a gun and proficiency with it, kudos to you; you are a survivor.

Ed

:-D Anna [/QUOTE]

brighid

Daleth,

You are welcome! If nothing else I hope MF&P is a place where we can discuss touchy, emotional subjects with some sense of civility. It can be difficult (just look at some of the vegetarian threads ), but with time, patience, understanding and some occassional moderation I think we have largely achieved that.

I very much disagree with the idea that discussions should be one sided, "Yes, I feel exactly the way you do" pats on the back where dissent and/or other valid points of view are discouraged, or intimidation of others who don't agree is accepted (as long as you follow the rules of the forum )

Dissent, opposition and different perspectives are incredibly important facets of discussion and without those I do not think educated conclusions can be achieved. So please, at least here in MF&P do not feel you cannot or should not post a differing opinion or experience.

As a moderator, and as a participant I greatly appreciate all the different points of view people present in discussion. My knowledge is enriched because of it and I thank you.

I know far too many women who have been victims of sexual assault and rape. I wish I didn't. I agree with prevention, but I also think men should be educated about what constitutes sexual assault and rape. Obviously some just don't get it.

Brighid

Brighid

beth

I was at Target, Wednsday. I just found out last night that a woman was being raped in the parking lot while I was there. The man came up, knocked her into the back seat, and raped her. This was in Westly Chapel(or New Tampa) a very nice and wealthy area.

There was another rape that I know of that day, too, but I know of no details. Rapes happen everyday in parking lots. I think my fears are justified.

Daleth

My aunt was raped, my mother escaped an attempted rape, and my college roomie and best friend was raped more than once. To put me in a bit of perspective, I'm of Jewish descent and grew up surrounded by holocaust survivors. A woman I knew was a subject of the twin experiments, for instance. One thing I took from all of this was not to give anybody an inch when it comes to being violent with me or trampling on my rights, cause if you do, they'll just keep going. People who treat me badly just aren't allowed in my life. Another thing I took from it was that if people can live through that and go on and live happy lives afterwards and not live in constant fear, well then I can handle the more ordinary dangers that may be before me in my life and if I am the victim of a violent crime, I can get up and keep living too. (And by that I don't mean "there's always somebody worse off than you," but that we all have the strength to survive and recover from damn near anything if we have to.) Fear is a weapon that can only be used against you. I'm far more likely to get blindsided and thrown into a panic by something like serious illness than by violent crime. I'm more ready for external demons than internal ones.

The info about training can't be repeated enough. Thing to remember if you do decide to carry a weapon is that it can still be taken away from you or you could still be attacked at a time when you don't have it (the example of not being allowed to carry a gun when you're drinking or a teacher or student can't carry a weapon on school grounds) so don't let the weapon itself become your confidence. Even if you're going to carry a weapon, get training in how to use the weapons that you can't ever be without, the best of which is your head, lit & fig.

A gun's not the best weapon for this sort of attack where if you're grabbed it's going to be sudden and likely from behind and where the whole thing is close contact. I'm concerned that women are carrying guns just because it feels so powerful, not because it's the most effective choice in this sort of situation. Also if you actually get an opportunity to use a ranged weapon like a gun, you may have a devil of a time proving it was indeed self-defense. If you got a chance to shoot him, he probably wasn't touching you at the time, so unless he's also armed, you may have trouble. Push that hard to prove up a few notches if it's the most common form of attacker, somone you know like an ex-boyfriend where there's liable to be the appearance that you had a fight and killed him in a rage. I'm not saying don't carry a gun, just if you decide to carry one, don't think having it and knowing how to use it is a pat solution.

Know what you need to know to avoid danger and to protect yourself from it, and then don't think about it every day. They aren't behind every tree. Live your life the way you deserve to live it. You're far more likely to be killed in a car accident than to be killed by a rapist, but you don't worry about that every day; you just know what you need to know to drive safely and protect your life on the road and get on with it. Teaching your daughter how to handle and avoid predators doesn't have to be covered with any greater sense of emotional urgency than teaching her highway safety and wearing a seatbelt. That sense of emotional urgency can itself harm young women, make us feel like victims-in-waiting. It bothers me that my 14-year-old niece has been so thoroughly taught all her life about the dangers of predators that she really thinks they're everywhere, common as cornflakes, and at her age is so controlled by the fear that the evil of the world is laying in wait for her that she's never once spent a night at a friend's house or even her grandparents' or other relative's house. Yet she's not immobilized by fear of the other possible dangers in her life like that she could be killed doing acrobatics or working with an untrained horse, and she can hardly wait to get her license.

No problem. It's one of the most emotional topics to discuss all around. I typically do not need to be treated with kid gloves, and I'm sorry to be such a wimp about it. But as I keep saying, I have a reaction to this subject that I don't have to any other thing I can think of. I'm constantly afraid that I'm going to say something that's really hurtful to someone else, someone who's already been hurt. And I feel that the activist communities, while they do a fantastic job of raising awareness, helping women know how to take care of themselves, teaching women and the world that victims are not to blame for what is done to them, and convincing women to report crimes committed against them, they've also created a rhetoric that is so strong and so emotionally charged that it's no longer open to any slight criticism. I mean, I feel that, have internalized that I'm bad if I question a word that they say. I guess that's the closest I get to knowing what it feels like to try to leave behind one's religious training. Oh, and I've seen you around. You're not a bastard, at least not more often than the rest of us.

Amen-Moses

Originally posted by enrious
Excellent. So the guy in Japan who went in and stabbed numerous children at a school should be the final straw that leads to the removal of all knives from Japanese society?

Yep, we did that too.

Or what about yesterday, when a man drove into a crowded market, killing at least 10 and injuring over 40 should lead to the prompt removal of vehicles worldwide?

No but we do tend tohave pedestrian only areas here far more so than in the US, fo example even though we have "no vehicle access" signs and "pedestrians only" we don't trust car drivers to take notice of signs (or we expect them to make mistakes) so we also put honking great concrete barriers in their way.

The only alternative to a total firearm ban (at least in public areas) is to issue everyone with kevlar body armour (i.e the equivelent of personnel honking great concrete barriers) but as it is cheaper to do A than B we went with A.

Of course if firearms could help you get a weeks shopping home or take the kids to school on a rainy day then we might have gone with the body armour.

Amen-Moses

enrious

So you no longer have knives in England? Well, that'd explain some of the food.

Have club related assaults increased?

So what you're saying is that despite having signs up and laws on the books, people are still at risk?

See, I've always maintained that if we had better educated criminals, who could read the various laws, they'd be aware they were breaking the law and stop. Because if there's a law enacted, no one would break it, right?

I'm sure that's comforting to the people in the market.



And how does a kevlar vest protect against a rapist or murderer?

That violates some fundamental law of physics, I"m sure.

Oh, so now you're arguing that the only items/products allowed in society are those which serve some sort utility?

Man, what do you do without television, radio, SUVs, kites, fantasy books, and Winnie the Pooh?

Bree

The Department of Justice - I didn't actually look them up myself; another poster did the honours for me, and I thanked him at the bottom of the OP.

I think this is the direct responsibility of the person who decides to own the gun. It's something that the potential gun-owner is going to have to take into consideration prior to making such a purchase; if she is not going to be willing to take responsibility for the weapon (this includes receiving training regularly, handling it properly, and storing it securely) then perhaps she should think twice about making the purchase in the first place.
How exactly would you go about doing this? Obviously there are situations where women are "to blame" for their rapes (so to speak, although I obviously know that no one is ever "to blame" for their own assault) - such as going home half-drunk with men they barely know or walking through a dark parking lot with their hands full of shopping bags. But it's folly to think one can teach and train against all types of attack situtations, and in my opinion, it's folly to think that all rapes can be avoided if the women simply take a few precautions.

I applaud women like livius and daleth, who do not "walk in fear" - like brighid said, it is something I wish I could profess myself. I hate not being able to trust the men that approach me. Yesterday I had a flat tyre and needed a ride to a service station to get a new one (I can change it myself; I just needed a new one). I was so uncomfortable riding with the man who gave me the ride I almost jumped out the moon roof when he reached over towards me (he was fixing my seat belt).

Bad Kitty

You betcha your fears are justified.

As far as I'm concerned, I have the right to protect myself by any legal means, and I believe that when you are protecting yourself from assault you should put your attacker down and keep them down if at all possible. There will be no "maybe I should try to just shoot them in the kneecap because MAYBE they were JUST going to rape me twice then let me go" coming from me. Pardon my French, but fuck that shit.

Do I think that woman who got knocked into the backseat of the car in the Target parking lot had the right to shoot and possibley kill her attacker to protect herself? You bet your bubkiss I do. Is she justified in killing her ATTACKER right at that moment? YES, absolutely. Is capital punishment the appropriate punishment for a convicted rapist? Our legal system says no, it isn't. But those two instances (the attack vs. the trial/sentencing) are completely unrelated. I'm not acting as a judge and jury during an attack; I'm fighting for my life.

Fear doesn't rule my life even though I "escaped" an attack in college by fighting back so hard the guy apparently decided I wasn't worth the effort (I'm just lucky the asshole didn't have a weapon, as I might not have been so lucky if he had). Amazingly, this asshole did not present me with an executive summary of his intent before he jumped me. He just opened the conversation with a nice punch to my face. Was he going to rape me? Kill me? I don't know, he actually never told me as he tried to wrestle me to the ground. I walked away with a broken arm, a cracked jaw, bruised ribs, an array of scrapes and bruises, a missing chunk of hair, and complete clarity about one thing. If I've got to choose between me and my ATTACKER'S well-being and rights, well, I choose mine EVERY TIME. And that asshole is still out there. Lucky us.

Bottom line for me: if you are woman who can handle a gun effectively, is comfortable carrying one, and accepts the responsibilities of doing so, by all means go for it.

Michelle

Pyrrho

Absolutely. Contacting one's local rape crisis center for information on how to do that is something every woman should do. And do some searching on the Internet for more information as well.

Though it is a trite saying, this is a case where "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

Pyrrho

Yes, obviously. But, in point of fact, many situations require that one lay down one's purse to do the things in life that one needs to do. And there are times when one needs to not have a gun strapped to one's body as well. Thus, the gun must be left at home on many occasions, making is ineffective as a primary means of protection.



I think you are missing the point. Doing things that avoid the more likely situations in which one would be raped is the best thing one could possibly do. Now, of course, you are right that one may still be raped anyway, but that is no reason to say that this is the wrong approach. Having a gun or doing anything (other than suicide) is not going to be a guarantee that you won't be raped. The best choice is to avoid as many potentially dangerous situations as possible.

And, on a more personal note, you should always have a spare tire, unless you have "run flat" tires.