Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NOGO · 01-23-2002, 06:29 AM

The Bible contains many flat earth concepts.
One of these is a thing called "the firmament". Some Bibles translate it as "the expanse".
What is it and what does it look like?

Quote:

Gen 1:6-9
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

The firmament or heaven separates water above from waters below. The waters below are obviously the oceans and lakes etc. but what are the waters above?
Note that firmament and heaven are the same. "And God called the firmament Heaven"
This is important because this definition will stick through the Bible (OT and NT)
Note also that the firmament or Heaven is a surface which separates things. I will show this further below.

Quote:

Gen 1:14-18
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

So the firmament or heaven which separates water from water also contain the sun, moon and stars. So the waters above the firmament are also above the sun, moon and stars. This does not make sense to modern ears but it will make sense when you see the full picture.

Quote:

Ezekiel 1:4-5
And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

Ezekiel 1:22-26
And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other:
every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that
side, their bodies. And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it

This shows the position of the throne of God above the firmament but also it shows the relatively closeness of the "great cloud" in verse 4, the creatures which are cherubins, the firmament above their heads and the throne above the firmament.
So the throne of God is just above the firmament which is like a terrible crystal streatched out above the heads of the cherubins.
Also the firmament is a solid surface. This is the surface which separated the waters above from the waters below in Genesis.

Some people will say that we should not read this literally. They will argue that it was a vision. But this vision simply goes hand in hand with everything else the Bible has to say on the subject and point to a view of the cosmos which is consistent throughout the Bible.
Also it should be noted that even in fictional stories we tend to portray our basic beliefs.

Quote:

Rev 6:12-15
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Note that the heaven rolled up like a scroll. Again this conveys an image that heaven or firmament is a surface.

Quote:

Isaiah 40:22 "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."

"stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."
This sentence compares the heavens to a tent. In which way can the heavens look like a tent? Picture a tent over a globe ... does this resemble heavens? So what can it poosbly mean?

Is the tent the same as the firmament or expanse in Genesis?

Is it the surface that Ezekiel (1:22) saw open before his eyes above the cloud?

Is it the same surface which departed as a scroll in Rev 6:12-15?

Some people believe that the Bible refers to two surfaces and that the firmament is a different surface that the Heavens. I believe that it is one since God calls the firmament Heaven in Genesis 1:7.

The earth is a circular disk with a tent-like dome over it. the stars, sun and moon are inside this dome (Genesis 1:17-18 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth) when they are visible and outside when they are not visible.

What is astonishing about all these verses is that they present a consistent and logical view (although mistaken) of the universe.

Quote:

Job 26:7
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place and hangeth the earth upon nothing."

(The North: used here as a synonym for the expanse or firmament)

This verse shows that north is a synonym of expanse or firmament.

Quote:

Isaiah 14:13
"But you said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.

The following three verse show similar thoughts but with the earth lying on a foundation and not hung on nothing.

Quote:

Isaiah 51:12-14
And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth;

Zech 12:1
This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, ...

Is 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens;

Notice that the laying the foundation of the earth and spreading the heavens is often expressed in the same sentence.
So why then does Job 26:7 says something different?

In verses below Yahweh himself tells Job that he does not know what he is talking about and that indeed the earth was set on a foundations (footings, cornerstone)

Quote:

Job 38
Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
"Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?
Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone--
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

So Yahweh straighten Job out. he tells him that he is without knowledge then proceeds to tell him that the earth is set on a foundation.

One last thing "the end of the world".
Why do we need an end to this world before the Kingdom of God starts.
Note this verse in Daniel 12:13

Quote:

"But as for you (Daniel), go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

The angel is telling Daniel that he will die and then will have to wait for the end of the world to get his reward.
The question is why must Daniel (and everybody else) wait for the end of the world.

Paul says this

Quote:

1 Corinthians 15- 51:52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Note again that the dead are in-waiting for the end of the world.

The reason is simple. With a world view as discussed above where the stars are just small lights fixed to the dome of heaven there IS NO OTHER PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO GO.
The Kingdom of God must take place here on earth. Therefore people imagined that the earthly kingdoms must come to an end before God's kingdom starts. Otherwise God's kingdom could have started somewhere else, on another planet on the other side of the univers and
Daniel need not wait underground in sheol till the game here on earth is over.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Kosh · 01-23-2002, 06:52 AM

Excellent post Nogo! Thanks for the time, it's
always good to have things put in the perspective
of the times. We tend too often to interpret these
things through 21st century colored glasses....

Is there something like this in the library?
If not you should consider writing it up and
submitting it there.

emotional · 01-23-2002, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:

Meta =>Same argument. Joshua making the sun stand still is just the same as my professor saying the sun will come out from behind the clouds. It's just the way we talk. God could put more krypton in the atmosphere and refract more light for a longer period.

And Parry could make the atmosphere Hotter!

Quote:

Why would you expect it not to be gencentric? Its not written to be science.

The Bible doesn't teach correct theology either, Metacrock. The Bible talks about an external sovereign over the Universe, reward and punishment, divine control, miracles, prayers having effect on the real world, and other such untrue things.

Metacrock, you think you're a modern person, carrying Christianity - a solid-sky religion - into the Space Age with grace, but no: you're primitive. You know why you're primitive? It doesn't take much to be primitive. I'll say just this: A MODERN PERSON DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT PRAYER COULD BRING DOWN OR STOP RAIN! A modern person does not believe there is any Lord over the Universe! Such beliefs belong to the past and are inexcusable today! Get that into your head!

emotional · 01-23-2002, 09:17 AM

Oh, and speaking of solid-sky religion: while there may be some wiggle-room out of the Flat Earth business, there's no escaping that the Bible teaches a solid sky. Upper waters, lower waters, separated by a solid separator (that's the meaning of Hebrew vayyavdil in Genesis: "he separated between [them]").

For all those 6-day creationists, remember that the Solid Sky model is important for the Genesis Flood. Other models of the flood, such as a vapour canopy, don't work (the problem of atmospheric pressure). Instead of dreaming up silly ideas, I would suggest that Bible-believing creationists should heed the plain words of the Bible: the waters of the flood came from the sky. God opened holes (windows) in the solid covering to let water from above flood the world. If you disbelieve in that, you might as well accept evolution, naturalism, materialism, and the bankruptcy of your outdated religion.

Vapour of vapours, said the Gatherer, all is vapour! (Ecc 1:1)

NOGO · 01-23-2002, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Kosh
Excellent post Nogo! Thanks for the time, it's
always good to have things put in the perspective
of the times. We tend too often to interpret these
things through 21st century colored glasses....
Is there something like this in the library?
If not you should consider writing it up and
submitting it there.

Thanks but most of it can be found elsewhere. I had an arguement with an inerrantist and was forced to put all of this together. The only thing that is truly my own is the end of the world bit.

Which reminds me of another bit I overlooked.

Quote:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Why would heaven be detroyed?
Earth is going to be destroyed because of the evil people etc. but why heaven?

The answer should be obvious. If heaven is a tent like dome sitting on the earth and the earth is destroyed then the dome must be destroyed as well.
At least in the minds of people at the time this was written.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

NOGO · 01-23-2002, 02:20 PM

On my last post I discussed the solid sky or dome of Heaven.
This is the rest of the flat earth arguement.

THE WATER CONNECTION

Quote:

Gen 1:6-9
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven.

The firmament or heaven separates water above from waters below. The waters below are obviously the oceans and lakes etc. but what are the waters above?

Quote:

Psalms|104:2-13
Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills
They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.
By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.
He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works

God's chambers are on the waters. Note also that clouds are like chariots to ride in.
Note the last line. He waters the hills from his chambers not from the clouds. Now which waters are we talking about in Ps 104:3 ?
Remeber Ezekeil's vision of God throne above the firmament.
I can't be the waters below the firmament because
rain usually falls straight down. If God waters the hills from his chambers then his chambers are somewhere above the hills.
So if it isn't clouds then his chambers whose foundations are in the waters must be in the waters above the firmament.
So the waters above the firmament are used for rain as also confirmed in the verses below.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 28:12
The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand:

Genesis 8:1
And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
Genesis 8:2
The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained

Deut 28:12
The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.

Windows of heavens are more like opening in the firmament (dome of heaven) through which water falls rather than clouds.

So the waters above are for rain.

RELATIVE DISTANCES

Quote:

Job 11: 7-8
Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?
They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?
Its measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea.

Psalm 103: 11-12
For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

In the verses above the height of heaven above the earth is spoken in terms which make it comparable to
1) The deapth of Sheol
2) earth's length
3) the size of the sea
4) the distance between east and west

Sheol is below ground so an upper limit to this measure is 4000 miles since that would take us to the center of the earth.
Both 2 and 3 can be as much as 8,000 miles since that is the earth's diameter. The size of the sea can actually be more that
the earth's diameter but cannot be more than the earth's circumference which is 24,000 miles. The pacific ocean can be as
much as 10,000 miles.

So the height of heavens is at most 10,000 miles which does not even get you to the moon which is at 238,000 miles.
Yet Genesis says that God placed the moon the sun and the stars in the firmament.

The point of these verses is to show that in the mind of the author, all these distances are comparable. We know today that the distance
to the stars is millions of times larger than any earth bound measurement. Note again that the poetic nature of these lines do not remove the fact that the author believed that these distances were comparable.

THE SUN

Quote:

Ps 19:4:6
... In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.

It is claimed that this is poetry. Yet the imagery must be noted since it is based on belief.
The analogy of the sun movement is with a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion rejoicing to run his course. The sun rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other.

There is no concept here of a continuous movement. There is a start and there is an end. Rather the imagery is that of a race "run his course". So there is definitely a start and an end to the sun's path, each day.

This fits in well with the following.

Quote:

Ecclesiastes 1:5
Also, the sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again.

Note the "hastening to its place". So the sun returns to its place ready to rise again.

Again there is no concept that the sun's movement is continuous. The sun rushes to its place ready to rise again. The sun exits the dome of Heaven and rushes to the entry point ready to rise for another day.

Quote:

Job 9:7
Who is speaking to the sun, and it riseth not, And the stars He sealeth up.

Joshua 10:12-14
On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!

The sun is ordered not to rise or to stop and it delays going down. The movement is that of the sun not the earth. Again these lines by themselves may not prove much but taken with the rest a picture emerges which cannot be overlooked.

FLAT-EARTH

Quote:

Daniel 4:10-11, "I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

The only reason to have a very tall tree which reached onto heaven was so that it could be seen from the ends of the earth. Today, we all know that no matter how tall a tree may be it cannot be seen from everywhere on earth. The analogy with the tree is a flat-earth analogy because only on a flat earth could this analogy possibly hold.

Quote:

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Whether this event actually took place or not IS NOT an issue. The person who wrote these lines believed the earth to be flat. Even if the story is fiction, the concept behind the story is a flat earth concept. Some people will argue that Jesus being God did not need to climb a mountain to see things. True, but beside apologizing for the text as written this does not help much. The claim is that the author shows a bias. His flat-earth bias. What Jesus did or did not do is not the issue.

If one takes all these things together a very consistant and credible (for the times) view emerges.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Vorkosigan · 01-23-2002, 02:57 PM

Metacrock, you think you're a modern person, carrying Christianity - a solid-sky religion - into the Space Age with grace, but no: you're primitive. You know why you're primitive? It doesn't take much to be primitive. I'll say just this: A MODERN PERSON DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT PRAYER COULD BRING DOWN OR STOP RAIN! A modern person does not believe there is any Lord over the Universe! Such beliefs belong to the past and are inexcusable today! Get that into your head!

Devnet, such rants are unacceptable. Many modern people believe that there is a God.

Michael

emotional · 01-23-2002, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtonm:
Devnet, such rants are unacceptable. Many modern people believe that there is a God.

Michael

Those who believe in God (I mean the Biblical or Qur'anic God, the one that hears prayers and controls history) can't be called modern. They may be living in our modern times, but their beliefs are fossils of primitive thoughts. Objectively there is absolutely no reason to believe in the God of the Bible; but the "magical music" of Scripture attracts many people, so they continue believing in the nonsense.

Toto · 01-23-2002, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by devnet:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by turtonm:
Devnet, such rants are unacceptable. Many modern people believe that there is a God.
Michael
--------------------------------------------------

Those who believe in God (I mean the Biblical or Qur'anic God, the one that hears prayers and controls history) can't be called modern. They may be living in our modern times, but their beliefs are fossils of primitive thoughts. Objectively there is absolutely no reason to believe in the God of the Bible; but the "magical music" of Scripture attracts many people, so they continue believing in the nonsense.

Truly Modern people believe in a Modern God (TM). The Modern God does not cause rain, thunder, earthquakes, or volcanic eruptions. (Too primitive!) Modern God confines Himself to making sure the laws of physics keep on working. He also heals the bruised psyches of yuppies and helps out, in a non-judgmental way, their progress along the twelve steps to recovery from their overconsumption of drugs and alcohol. What a fellow!

Photocrat · 01-24-2002, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
Bottom line: For centuries, Bible-believers failed to recognize the roundness of the Earth. They pointed to the Bible as proof. Sure, the language may have been poetic -- but it still led believers astray.

Even if the case isn't so strong for the "Flat Earth" belief, just change it to geocentrism. This belief persisted into the 20th century (think William Jennings Bryan), and some (very few) still insist on it today.

Eh? What they mostly argued over is whether the antipodes were inhabited. Not so different than us wondering about the possibility of life on other planets, today.

The Greeks had a good guess as to how big the Earth is (remarkably close!) and even in Paul's time, that would've been known. Columbus had a much smaller estimate & that's what made him think that he could make it clear around the world to 'India' (which is how Native Americans got called 'Indians', too) so we know that this was known even in his day & age (otherwise, it'd be silly to try to go east by going west...

Geocentrism is another story...

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01-23-2002, 06:52 AM	#52
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Excellent post Nogo! Thanks for the time, it's always good to have things put in the perspective of the times. We tend too often to interpret these things through 21st century colored glasses.... Is there something like this in the library? If not you should consider writing it up and submitting it there.

01-23-2002, 09:17 AM	#54
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Oh, and speaking of solid-sky religion: while there may be some wiggle-room out of the Flat Earth business, there's no escaping that the Bible teaches a solid sky. Upper waters, lower waters, separated by a solid separator (that's the meaning of Hebrew vayyavdil in Genesis: "he separated between [them]"). For all those 6-day creationists, remember that the Solid Sky model is important for the Genesis Flood. Other models of the flood, such as a vapour canopy, don't work (the problem of atmospheric pressure). Instead of dreaming up silly ideas, I would suggest that Bible-believing creationists should heed the plain words of the Bible: the waters of the flood came from the sky. God opened holes (windows) in the solid covering to let water from above flood the world. If you disbelieve in that, you might as well accept evolution, naturalism, materialism, and the bankruptcy of your outdated religion. Vapour of vapours, said the Gatherer, all is vapour! (Ecc 1:1)

01-23-2002, 02:57 PM	#57
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Metacrock, you think you're a modern person, carrying Christianity - a solid-sky religion - into the Space Age with grace, but no: you're primitive. You know why you're primitive? It doesn't take much to be primitive. I'll say just this: A MODERN PERSON DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT PRAYER COULD BRING DOWN OR STOP RAIN! A modern person does not believe there is any Lord over the Universe! Such beliefs belong to the past and are inexcusable today! Get that into your head! Devnet, such rants are unacceptable. Many modern people believe that there is a God. Michael

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