scigirl

mhc - I don't think your request is that strange. Doctors play a big role in our lives, more than just prescribing penicillin. They talk to us about our sex lives, they play a role in our mental health, etc etc.

I imagine that certain patient groups, such as the gay population, might seek non-theistic (or at least non-fundie) doctors for very practical reasons. I myself would stop going to a doctor if I found out he or she was really religious, because I would not feel comfortable discussing my sex life with some fundie who thinks I'm going to hell for having pre-marital sex!

If it's that important that the doctor is a non-believer, you could be sneaky and ask them questions about evolution or abortion or stem cells. If you find a doc whose views tend to oppose the traditional religious side, than either you've found an atheist/agnostic, OR you've found one of those "sunday only" christians (like the doc I work with) who believes in some fuzzy being and in being good to others, but more importantly, believes in science.

So. . . can you wait about 10 years and move to Colorado?

Future Doc Scigirl...

mhc

Don't get bamboozled by the HMO's. Doctor's aren't just craftsmen or mechanics. It's not as if they can just look up all the answers in some manual.
Medicine is art as well as science.
I can scarcely believe that so many of you really have an impersonal, utterly objective and scientific relationship with your doctors. They kind of relationship in which it is irrelevent who the doctor is as a person.
For me, it is very important who my doctor is personally, because I believe that his most critical judgments will be informed by who he is, what his basic beliefs are.
In fact, what I really want is a doctor who is atheist and existentialist.
And who prefers Wittgenstein over Popper, and can distinguish Kantian from Aristotelian ethics.
Knowing such a doctor's beliefs would help me trust that his judgment would be similar to mine in most situations.
When it comes to my well-being, I can't really trust the judgment of those who believe in an imaginary being whose will manifests as physical change.
:banghead:

scigirl

Um who the hell are those guys? (Dont tell me, actually).

You are looking for an atheist doctor in fundie USA land who actually has time to read books other than "Fundamentals of Renal Physiology?" GOOD LUCK!!

scigirl (last post tonight, off to study. . . .)

Giorgia

Welcome, MHC!

I understand your frustration with some of the replies you've gotten: I've only been on the IIDB for a few months myself, and I can tell you from personal experience that there are a whole lot of people here who will answer questions about lots of things without being confrontational about your personal motivation. (As an aside, I've gotten some of the best computer-fixes on this board... )

I'm not too good at this, but I'll try to insert a link to another thread in the "Secular Lifestyle & Support forum" which you may find interesting: "Anyone been through AA, CA, NA, OA, etc. w/o appealing to "higher power"?" http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...7&goto=newpost JenniferD may have found some secular contacts she could share with you -- and you could also PM any other posters whose answer seems to be on track for you.

My suggestions regarding your question would be for you to get in contact with area Humanist, Buddhist, Atheist, and Unitarian organizations. These type of groups usually have a membership list which includes a "service-providers" list -- to promote members doing business with like-minded people. A phonecall to a group's membership chair or president should also lead you to some non-theistic health care providers.

Good luck!

Mad Kally

I went to a psychiatrist (MD) who informed me I needed to read my bible and pray more. Guess how I reacted to that?! The f**ckwit. This is the United States. I'm happy for you people who live in other countries. The vast majority of this country is religious. It's worse than finding a needle in a haystack. It's very important for me to have secular doctors. I have no respect for brainwashed cult members, and YES the subject always comes up.

One time a surgeon prayed over me just before an appendectomy. If I hadn't been so high on the drugs they gave me I would have tried to gouge his eyes out! I wish I could have removed his appendix with a spoon!

It will never bother me one bit to call their offices and ask in the future. Why shouldn't we? We are the consumers. (or clients is the word they prefer these days) Doctors do not walk on water! You have every right to speak up and ask questions. Too many people are afraid to say anything. I found an atheist doctor by asking questions. He's moved out of state now, but I will follow the same procedure next time. (unless I'm unconscious) then I will ask questions if I ever wake up.

I was fortunate enough to have an atheist psychiatrist for several years before I lost my good insurance. We had some good laughs over xian nutjobs. (doctors, nurses, and anyone else)

Kally RN

Jagged

I'm also surprised by the resistance voiced on the idea of finding a doctor who shares your beliefs (or lack of them).

Speaking for myself, if I'm going to trust another person with my life, I need to be sure that there is a compatibility that goes beyond scientific aptitute. At a time in my life when I needed to see a doctor every month over the course of 2 years, I found it of crucial importance to KNOW my doctor pretty darn well as a person. I was DAMN lucky that he was not a bible-thumping fundy, because if he had been (and I encountered other professionals who were, there are plenty out there), I may not have gotten the kind of help that I needed. And/or, I may not have felt comfortable enough to fully trust him... with my life!

I see the "as long as s/he's scientifically qualified" perspective as falling back into a false dichotomy of mind/body seperation. Our minds are housed by our physical bodies, and what affects our bodies affects every aspect of our quality of life.

Now I might not as an atheist personally feel that I need an atheist doctor, but jeebus, if mhc feels that this is an important requirement for his own health and well-being, we have *no business* telling him he's wrong.

Too, too long have we locked our doctors up in ivory towers and believed them immune from the kinds of bias that religion, culture, and personality can effect on patient care. This is a *dangerous* oversight. No, it's not supposed to be that way. Yes, it too often is.

It's probably true that as long as you don't have a serious, chronic or terminal condition, your personal r'ship with your doctor won't matter as much. But believe me people, if you *do* get really sick unexpectedly, it's a whole new ball game and certainly not the time you're going to feel up to conducting a thorough search for someone more suited to you.

You've also got to realize that when you're sick, *you're very vulnerable.* You may be able to use great discernment concerning whatever your doctor told you about your ear infection last week, but what if something more serious comes up (and face it, it probably will)? That's why you need to make sure you've got someone you deeply trust *before* the fact. And that is a determination which should be made by every competant individual, *on their own terms.*

scigirl

Jagged,

That was a great post. I think part of the criticism from mhc's request stems from the idea that many Christians automatically pigeonhole us as immoral people simply because we aren't Christians. See my companion thread I just started about "Being an atheist doctor" for a very recent example from me. Similarly, we as atheists tend to pigeonhole theists being "stupid" or somehow less of a person simply because they are theists. It's the same thing, in my mind.

Frankly, I've seen some sharp and excellent theistic doctors. Why? Well oftentimes, religious people are just really good at separating things they think about with their brains (i.e. medical science) and things they rarely think about rationally (the religious stuff).

I think what we all need to do when choosing a health care professional is ask a couple of questions:

1) Does the religious belief affect their ability to think rationally and do good clinical science?
2) Does the religious belief lead to discrimination of the patient (i.e. homosexual or a person who had an abortion)?
3) Does the patient feel comfortable talking to the health care professional about their beliefs, and their potential implications for therapy (i.e. end of life care and a lack of belief in an afterlife).

This thread sort of makes it sound like there are two groups of people - atheists and fundies. In reality, there are so many belief systems out there that I think most good doctors can operate within a wide range of belief differences. A Jewish doctor can treat a Catholic, a Christian doctor can treat a Muslim, and so on. In terms of things like renal physiology - it don't make a whit of difference what beliefs you hold about gods! In terms of being a compassionate person who cares about the needs and desires of the patient, I sincerely hope that most doctors do this, irrespective of what they do on Sunday morning.

scigirl

mhc

scigirl asks:
1) Does the religious belief affect their ability to think rationally ..?

Well, ummm,

I wouldn't claim that it disables all rational function, but if one's basic beliefs about who one is, what the world is, who others are, what disease is, in short- the nature of EVERYTHING- are based in an imaginary dreamworld which has no part in rationality.....then YES! I do think that all religious belief interferes with rationality to some degree.
There is no such thing as real objectivity. Our beliefs color our perceptions in ways of which we are mostly unaware.
It doesn't matter how scientifically objective a physician claims to be, if he or she truly believes that God is the final arbiter of all outcomes, then he or she has relinquished a crucial bit of their responsibility and control.
No matter how fiercely he upholds the standards of his profession, no matter how seriously he takes his fiduciary position in society, a believer will know in his heart of hearts that it is God's will if a patient lives or dies. I am aware of no theist sects who claim that God is not omnipotent.
I don't need the best doctor in the world; I just need one who believes that what doesn't exist doesn't exist, as is honest enough to say as much.


mhc

Abacus

Even those theists who hold deism type of beliefs?

alek0

BUt I really don't see why should it matter if you are talking about a GP. If there is any serious problem, GP most likely wouldn't be able to fix it anyway.

Nor is atheism a guarantee for objectivity and rational thinking. Doc whom I usually see when my regular doc is on holiday is not religious. However, he has this thing about pollution allergy. Whatever is wrong with you, it is pollution allergy. My bronchitis last year was pollution allergy. My RA's digestion problems were pollution allergy. Other than that and being unable to take a blood sample without making you look like swiss cheese, he is a nice guy. But would I trust him with my life? Absolutely not!

On the other hand, bad experiences in the past have thought me not to trust any doctor with my life. I always do my homework before going to see a doc, and then stick with the one who doesn't resent that fact. I don't think I would ever see a fundy doctor, but there are also a lot of moderate christians who are also medically competent.

But anyway since you are not likely to get an answer if you directly ask a doctor about his/her religious beleifs (and understandably so), maybe you could pretend to be homosexual. If you don't detect any signs that the doc has a problem with that, you may have found the right one