Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Luiseach · 06-01-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tenspace
I just skimmed "The Fabric of Reality" a couple of times, but could not find the reference where DD states that he feels our existence is a virtual reality, not unlike a video game.

Surely the writer was speaking metaphorically...?

wildsimian · 06-01-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster
Belief in an after-life increases my fear of death. The idea that you go on and on forever is a horrendous idea. Even in heaven it would be hell in the long run, and I do mean long run.

The wonderful thing about physical biological life, is that you can get out of it. This is not the perspective of a suicidial depressive, but the view of one who says that the idea that you won't be around someday makes you appreciate the day you have now.

That some kind of consciousness goes on forever somewhere else is appalling. Trapped in yourself forever with strange beings ,like a robed guy from the Middle East or some Italian pope's soul, or worse yet, hanging with Pat Robertson.

I prefer uttter oblivion. Lights out. Gone.

Oh I agree. I can't imagine going on and on forever.

For me it is enough to treasure the life I have and realize that I have been a part of a wonderful and awe-inspiring cycle of life and death. And I am satisfied. It gives me a sense of peace that no "God" can offer.

trekbette · 06-02-2003, 07:47 PM

For myself, I think that when we die, we are gone.

Sometimes I wish I could believe in an afterlife, if for no other reason than the idea that my dog--who gives me unlimited amounts of joy, my turtles--who died in an accident Mother's Day weekend last year, and other sweet and harmless creatures cease to exist makes me sad.

But I can't believe in an afterlife. There were so many billions of people and animals that have lived before us and even more that have not even been born yet that the idea of an afterlife seems life a bureaucratic nightmare that it is unimaginable to me.

lugotorix · 06-03-2003, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113

Quote:

Originally posted by Tenspace
Not necessarily. Some very well-wired brains out there think that this is one big video game, maybe more like the Sims than the Matrix.

Examples, please, with supporting evidence.

Sir Martin Rees , for one, a professor at Cambridge University.

lugotorix

Biff the unclean · 06-03-2003, 10:06 AM

I don't see how there possibly could be.
You would have to see without eyes, hear without ears, feel without a nervous system and think without a brain.
It could be argued that since energy can neither be created or destroyed that your energy goes on. But hell of a lot of good that will do you. You'll be converted into heat energy and the heat will dissipate into your surroundings--not what one would call "life."
All the superstitious versions of life after death have you in some sort of magic body. A Spirit--but a persons spirit is actually their breath (which is why you bless someone who sneezes) or a Soul--but a soul is the mind, which is the functioning of the brain. Were these magic bodies available to us in the real world then they would act as "back up systems." No one would be blind because they had lost their eyes or deaf because they had no ears.
Christians do seem to get along without brains, but I wouldn't call that living either.

Rational BAC · 06-03-2003, 10:35 AM

Biff--

I would call it thinking outside of the box. Which, I think most humans are wont to do.

We all do live in a box. A box of limitations.

Limitations to our intelligence, limitations to our senses. We see rationally only what our very limited intelligence and very limited senses demonstrate to us to be reality.

However, humans from the beginning of time, have considered the possibility that we do not see or sense all of reality. That is one of the wonderful things about being human. Do you think a dog or a cat thinks "outside the box?" Or even considers that possibility?

Can you say for sure that our perception of reality is the only one that there is? Are you absolutely certain that there is nothing "out there" at all? Are you absolutely determined to stay "within your box"?

I am not.

emotional · 06-03-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
I don't see how there possibly could be.

You'll believe in the afterlife when you get there

Mageth · 06-03-2003, 11:02 AM

In a sense, I am Life - my body, my brain, my consciousness. Life continues after I die. However, I, as a particular incarnation of Life, do not continue. That's enough for me.

Eastern religions' conception of reincarnation recognize this - it is not the I that reincarnates; there is no recollection of the former incarnations. Indeed, ultimately, there is no I. Only in the West do we seem to have the need for the ego to not die, and thus the conception of the I continuing in an afterlife. This is largely due to the Eastern recognition of unity with the transcendant - with the essence of existence, the universal consciousness, nature, or whatever you want to call it, while the West separates Man from the transcendant (which it labels "God") in a subject/object relationship, and also separates man from man, man from nature, and God from nature.

emotional · 06-03-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Eastern religions' conception of reincarnation recognize this - it is not the I that reincarnates; there is no recollection of the former incarnations. Indeed, ultimately, there is no I. Only in the West do we seem to have the need for the ego to not die, and thus the conception of the I continuing in an afterlife. This is largely due to the Eastern recognition of unity with the transcendant - with the essence of existence, the universal consciousness, nature, or whatever you want to call it, while the West separates Man from the transcendant (which it labels "God") in a subject/object relationship, and also separates man from man, man from nature, and God from nature.

In sum, the Eastern view is not one of transcendence at all, but of 100% immanence: the creature and the Creator are one and the same, and all one needs to do is to realise one is God. I reject this view: although I do not deny immanence, I hold that the Creator is also transcendent, other than the creation. To quote Gresham Machen, "between the creature and the Creator a great gulf is fixed". The distinctions between all things are totally real.

Biff the unclean · 06-03-2003, 07:21 PM

Can you say for sure that our perception of reality is the only one that there is?
I can say that unless you have superpowers and super senses then you perceive the exact same reality as everyone else.
If you are making claims for another reality that you don't perceive then you then any claims you make for it are lies.

Are you absolutely certain that there is nothing "out there" at all? Are you absolutely determined to stay "within your box"?
Has your world so filled with superstitious bull shit that you can't even speak the truth?

You think, therefore you exist.
To think you use the physical organ the brain.
No brain means no thinking.
No thinking means no you.

What's the matter kid? Reality scare you?

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06-02-2003, 07:47 PM	#13
trekbette Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Torrance, CA Posts: 533	For myself, I think that when we die, we are gone. Sometimes I wish I could believe in an afterlife, if for no other reason than the idea that my dog--who gives me unlimited amounts of joy, my turtles--who died in an accident Mother's Day weekend last year, and other sweet and harmless creatures cease to exist makes me sad. But I can't believe in an afterlife. There were so many billions of people and animals that have lived before us and even more that have not even been born yet that the idea of an afterlife seems life a bureaucratic nightmare that it is unimaginable to me.

06-03-2003, 10:06 AM	#15
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I don't see how there possibly could be. You would have to see without eyes, hear without ears, feel without a nervous system and think without a brain. It could be argued that since energy can neither be created or destroyed that your energy goes on. But hell of a lot of good that will do you. You'll be converted into heat energy and the heat will dissipate into your surroundings--not what one would call "life." All the superstitious versions of life after death have you in some sort of magic body. A Spirit--but a persons spirit is actually their breath (which is why you bless someone who sneezes) or a Soul--but a soul is the mind, which is the functioning of the brain. Were these magic bodies available to us in the real world then they would act as "back up systems." No one would be blind because they had lost their eyes or deaf because they had no ears. Christians do seem to get along without brains, but I wouldn't call that living either.

06-03-2003, 10:35 AM	#16
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Biff-- I would call it thinking outside of the box. Which, I think most humans are wont to do. We all do live in a box. A box of limitations. Limitations to our intelligence, limitations to our senses. We see rationally only what our very limited intelligence and very limited senses demonstrate to us to be reality. However, humans from the beginning of time, have considered the possibility that we do not see or sense all of reality. That is one of the wonderful things about being human. Do you think a dog or a cat thinks "outside the box?" Or even considers that possibility? Can you say for sure that our perception of reality is the only one that there is? Are you absolutely certain that there is nothing "out there" at all? Are you absolutely determined to stay "within your box"? I am not.

06-03-2003, 11:02 AM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In a sense, I am Life - my body, my brain, my consciousness. Life continues after I die. However, I, as a particular incarnation of Life, do not continue. That's enough for me. Eastern religions' conception of reincarnation recognize this - it is not the I that reincarnates; there is no recollection of the former incarnations. Indeed, ultimately, there is no I. Only in the West do we seem to have the need for the ego to not die, and thus the conception of the I continuing in an afterlife. This is largely due to the Eastern recognition of unity with the transcendant - with the essence of existence, the universal consciousness, nature, or whatever you want to call it, while the West separates Man from the transcendant (which it labels "God") in a subject/object relationship, and also separates man from man, man from nature, and God from nature.

06-03-2003, 07:21 PM	#20
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Can you say for sure that our perception of reality is the only one that there is? I can say that unless you have superpowers and super senses then you perceive the exact same reality as everyone else. If you are making claims for another reality that you don't perceive then you then any claims you make for it are lies. Are you absolutely certain that there is nothing "out there" at all? Are you absolutely determined to stay "within your box"? Has your world so filled with superstitious bull shit that you can't even speak the truth? You think, therefore you exist. To think you use the physical organ the brain. No brain means no thinking. No thinking means no you. What's the matter kid? Reality scare you?

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