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01-22-2003, 09:04 PM | #11 | |
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"We know through archaeological research that camels were not domesticated as beasts of burden earlier than the late second millenium, and were not widely used in that capacity in the near middle east until well after 1000 B.C." A small prepositional phrase, but significant enough that it should not be left out. While there are many webpages out about camels (search on "domesticated camel") that claim domestication dates from 4500 bc to 8000 bc (none of them list any support for such claims), it appears that Finkelstein is making a differentiation between "domestication" and "domestication as beasts of burden". (Don't ask me what else you'd use a domesticated camel for if not a beast of burden. Milk?). Note also that his point is that they were not widely used as such until after 1000 bce. His book specifically points out a dramatic increase in archeological camel bones around 7th century BCE. Here's the reason for his argument: "...the Joseph story - reveals an obvious familiarty with the main products of the lucrative Arabian trade that flourished under the supervision of the Assyrian empire in the eighth-seventh centuries BCE" (page 37) To kick this camel one more time, he is not claiming that Camels were not domesticated until after 1000, he is claiming that the level of domestic camel use for caravans, as described in the OT stories, did not exist until the 7th century BCE. |
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01-22-2003, 11:01 PM | #12 | |
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If Free and Clayton are correct, then Finkelstein and Silberman are simply wrong. Nogo brings up an interesting point. Who is more a priori believable: Finkelstein and Silberman, or a fundamentalist apologetics website? |
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01-23-2003, 03:53 AM | #13 |
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Look carefully at the dates cited in the reference. They are from the 1940s and 1960s. No doubt this evidence has either been redated or revised since the time of that writing. It is an old apologetics trick to cite out-of-date references as if they were still on target. I suspect the reason a 1944 reference was used is because later references would not support this.
But, I may be wrong, because.... ....a little web sleuthing brought up this much more interesting paper, in which the author says he discovered evidence of older camel domestication himself. http://www.aiias.edu/ict/vol_26B/26Bcc_457-477.pdf Use the search function to locate the word camel and read from there.
The comment "let alone Scripture" is a signal that the writer is probably heavily biased, but nevertheless, it is hard to argue with someone who says he has seen the elephant himself. The writer's website is here: http://www.andrews.edu/SEM/faculty/younker.htm He is a Seventh-Day Adventist, and does actual fieldwork in the Middle East. Vorkosigan |
01-23-2003, 08:01 AM | #14 | |
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01-23-2003, 08:08 AM | #15 | |
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Please take time to read this site and tell me if they appear to you as a credible source of informaiton. |
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01-23-2003, 08:10 AM | #16 | |
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01-23-2003, 08:14 AM | #17 | |
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01-23-2003, 10:06 AM | #18 |
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Finkelstein's very clear in his book that their findings are based on the last 20 years of archaelogical excavations.
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01-24-2003, 05:46 AM | #19 |
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Finkelstein is also director of archaelogy at a university in Israel. So being so close to the actual digs themselves and being an archalogist, it seems that he would know better than an apologetic.
Also, apologetics tend to jump the gun when it comes to "archaeological discoveries" that support their beliefs. Take the Ossurary, the Shroud, the human/dinosaur footprints, and the "Pictographs" of "Dinosaurs". All have been pretty much revealed to be either phony or misinterpated. |
01-24-2003, 06:23 AM | #20 |
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Dogs aren't camels, but this research applied to camels might answer the question of both where and when they were first domesticated.
Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason |
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