Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Keith · 02-17-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Sue Sponte

"You are fond of answering questions with questions, so I put to you an unanswered question I asked you several posts ago. What about being believing the bible makes one better capable of judging whether the sun will rise tomorrow, or whether an apple will fall to the ground if I let go of it? Perhaps your answer to this question will help me to understand your reasoning, as thus far, I am at a loss to understand why religious beliefs have anything to do with conclusions regarding certain aspects of repeated natural occurrences."

Because on the assumption of atheism, reasoning and understanding are not possible. Without God it makes no sense to do science. Without God no one would know which facts go with other facts to form an idea, or a concept. Without God no objective morality exists. To whatever extent atheists are using reason, science, morality, and so on, they are "borrowing" these from outside of their own worldview and they do it because they have no alternative.

Keith

Keith · 02-17-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Sue Sponte

"With all respect, this is nonsense. The sun rises, so you PRESUME that the sun rising is "of God's own nature." If the sun stopped rising, then you'd simply change "God's nature" to reflect this fact.

As I've asked repeatedly, what about the bible or God indicates that the sun will rise tomorrow? Until you explain why you believe that your theistic beliefs provide some advantage in understanding such things, I will continue to believe that you are simply concluding that any and all things are of god's doing. Which is really no answer at all."

From the atheistic viewpoint nature (and reality) "is just what is" and there is no order, design, or purpose in it. Remember atheism isn't supposed to be able to explain anything. On this assumption, it is only natural for a Christian to say...why do you think that the future will resemble the past? Why do you think that gravity will work the same way tomorrow as it has in the past?

From the Christian worldview I can make sense out my faith that the universe will continue to work the same way tomorrow, because from my worldview an ordered, designed, and purposeful universe that is intelligible is to be expected from a God who has shown these very same qualities through the creation and through the bible.

Keith

Sue Sponte · 02-17-2003, 05:11 PM

I've concluded that you simply state everything comes from god, avoiding whether or not that is in fact the case. Suggesting that science is the sole providence of religion is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard of late. You apparently haven't noticed that Christianity historically rejects science which is not consistent with the bible, but perhaps that should not come as a suprise.

I trust this works for you, but it does not make for much of an intellectual discussion. Over the course of several days, I've garnered that you believe god does everything. Why that is, I'll apparently never know.

AnthonyAdams45 · 02-17-2003, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Because on the assumption of atheism, reasoning and understanding are not possible.

Okay. What part of the definition of atheism, that is to say, what part of refusing to accept that the divine comprises some portion of the universe, entails the impossibility of reasoning and understanding?

I'll be the first to grant that atheism does not entail reasoning or understanding, but I cannot despite my beat and most sincere efforts see how not believing in God makes reasoning impossible.

AnthonyAdams45 · 02-17-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

from my worldview an ordered, designed, and purposeful universe that is intelligible is to be expected from a God who has shown these very same qualities through the creation and through the bible.

But God violates natural law repeatedly in the bible, so how can I trust him not to do so in the future? In fact, hasn't he guaranteed an end to the one after another of the material world? How can you, as a believer, not wonder if tomorrow will not come, that tonight is the night? Why doesn't that undermine your faith? Or is your faith so riddled with contradictions that reason has no home in it?

Keith · 02-17-2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Sue Sponte

"You apparently haven't noticed that Christianity historically rejects science which is not consistent with the bible, but perhaps that should not come as a suprise.

I trust this works for you, but it does not make for much of an intellectual discussion. Over the course of several days, I've garnered that you believe god does everything. Why that is, I'll apparently never know."

[/B]

Yes, some Christian institutions (such as the RCC) have rejected scientific theories when they imagined that such theories conflicted with either the bible or their theology. I'm not saying that religious institutions are infallible by any means.

To do science entails the belief that certain features of reality will remain constant over time. On the atheistic assumption, the belief in the uniformity of nature is puzzling.

Keith

Keith · 02-17-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by AnthonyAdams45

"Okay. What part of the definition of atheism, that is to say, what part of refusing to accept that the divine comprises some portion of the universe, entails the impossibility of reasoning and understanding?

I'll be the first to grant that atheism does not entail reasoning or understanding, but I cannot despite my beat and most sincere efforts see how not believing in God makes reasoning impossible."

I didn't say that not believing in God makes reasoning impossible. Atheists reason all the time. But their reasoning ability exists in spite of their atheism. IOW, when an atheist wants to make sense--and use reason, he/she must borrow the "tools" of reason from outside of their own worldview. This, they must do because their own worldview destroys all possibility for understanding and reason.

Keith

AnthonyAdams45 · 02-17-2003, 05:59 PM

Quote:

their own worldview destroys all possibility for understanding and reason

How? That is, what about not admitting the divine as a possible category for qualities destroy the possibility for understanding and reason? Just as interestingly, what is the exclusive relationship between the divine and understanding and reason?

Keith · 02-17-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by AnthonyAdams45

"But God violates natural law repeatedly in the bible, so how can I trust him not to do so in the future? In fact, hasn't he guaranteed an end to the one after another of the material world? How can you, as a believer, not wonder if tomorrow will not come, that tonight is the night? Why doesn't that undermine your faith? Or is your faith so riddled with contradictions that reason has no home in it?" [/B]

You can trust that God will always act in accordance with his nature. Yes, God can, and will, put an end to the world as we know it. My faith that tomorrow the sun will rise and gravity will still work the same way is not certainty...it's just faith. But it's faith that is connected with rationality; the personal nature of a purposeful creator that loves us and cares for us.

Keith

Keith Russell · 02-17-2003, 06:13 PM

Keith said: You can trust that God will always act in accordance with his nature. Yes, God can, and will, put an end to the world as we know it. My faith that tomorrow the sun will rise and gravity will still work the same way is not certainty...it's just faith. But it's faith that is connected with rationality; the personal nature of a purposeful creator that loves us and cares for us.

Keith Russell:
Where is the evidence that--evaluated rationally--led you to the understanding of 'God's' nature?

You've made claims, but you have not supported them. You have said that you have the same faith in reality as you have in 'God', but that is more easily explained as your failure to understand reality, than in your 'success' at understanding 'God'.

Support your claims, please...

Keith.

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02-17-2003, 05:11 PM	#113
Sue Sponte Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: west Posts: 1,213	I've concluded that you simply state everything comes from god, avoiding whether or not that is in fact the case. Suggesting that science is the sole providence of religion is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard of late. You apparently haven't noticed that Christianity historically rejects science which is not consistent with the bible, but perhaps that should not come as a suprise. I trust this works for you, but it does not make for much of an intellectual discussion. Over the course of several days, I've garnered that you believe god does everything. Why that is, I'll apparently never know.

02-17-2003, 06:13 PM	#120
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Keith said: You can trust that God will always act in accordance with his nature. Yes, God can, and will, put an end to the world as we know it. My faith that tomorrow the sun will rise and gravity will still work the same way is not certainty...it's just faith. But it's faith that is connected with rationality; the personal nature of a purposeful creator that loves us and cares for us. Keith Russell: Where is the evidence that--evaluated rationally--led you to the understanding of 'God's' nature? You've made claims, but you have not supported them. You have said that you have the same faith in reality as you have in 'God', but that is more easily explained as your failure to understand reality, than in your 'success' at understanding 'God'. Support your claims, please... Keith.

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