Darwin26

...seems odd...that FREEDOM, unconditional personal FREEDOM would be put upon and stressed just to advance unbridled, conventional controls...but then, that is the nature of the Beast... the beast who knows no boundaries.
...they know not where they end or Beth begins ...they only know Barriers... you have disrupted their conventional taboos...
YOU, have shown strength and courage beyond the trivial myths...YOU have eclipsed, the radical demons thriving on conditions...who must comply.
Not long ago Beth, you might have been arrested for such errant behavior... Today, know that many many here share your pain...through the doorways of compassion in our boundaries.
Interesting how the boundary bashers will try to beat you up exiting and beat you up entering. ...just ask Jackie Robinson.
i suspect the Courage and Self Respect you have revealed so far will NOT vanish, but grow solid, a connection to, a stepping stone for unknown others who seek escape through your FREEDOM ... Be Still and the richness of a FREE deep breath will leave you to walk on ...
your kids will see, a brave mother, banging and clawing her way out of prison ...it's difficult on the outside. We have to find new ways of dealing and socializing ... Thank cod for the internet.

Trecker

Dear Beth,
This is a most painful thread. If it would actually cure the problem that gives you so much pain I would say to you to go back.

I personally see the problem much more in terms of free thought verses pre-programmed, imposed, loop thinking. Thinking about this problem in terms of the murky, undefinable "gift of faith" condemns one's thoughts to the party line. This is not an issue of the "sin of pride" which we atheists are committing. We are just acknowledging the data which we see vs the data we do not see. If there were only data supporting theism 20% of the time, I would personally be very inclined to consider it. Wishing it to be so does not make it so, and more likely that wish is an indication that it is not so! If reliable data did support the theistic thinking, most if not all of us here would be theists. It not only does not but screams that there is no god!

While other posters here have given you good suggestions to help you to cope with this problem, I believe Darwin 26 tells the most important part. It really is about your family. It really is about how we teach our children to think, and think bravely. This life is much too short, and we must teach that to our kids, to not waste the good we can do and the pleasure we can feel in sanctimonious ceremonies, venerating and sacrificing to a deity that does not exist.

If you decide to try to go back, it is ok. At least you have exposed your children to honest searching. They will always search much more than they would have had they not had your example. There is additional goodness you can teach your children and others about life if you decide to persevere. I just hope that it does not continue to be so painful for you

Best of luck to you Beth in whatever you choose!

beth

Thank you, but I really and truly am not brave and I certainly don't deserve the kind words that were posted. But I have realized that I could care less about what my extended family/relatives think of me. I just now remembered how horrible they truly are. I think I delude myself often to forget the nature of people. I paint some pink, fluffy, fairy tale image of people in my mind and think of that image when I think of the person. Or maybe I just love people and try to only see the good in them. But I will not stress over their disapproval of me.

Now I do care what my husband, children, and mother and sister in laws think of me. I don't want to stress them and my son keeps asking me if I'm going to hell. I try to comfort him without contradicting his faith. I'll figure this out, but I don't think I will be all that verbal on my controversial thoughts.

The Other Michael

Hi Beth,

Let me recommend that you (and everyone else) read Hobbs' article Why I am not a Christian in the SecWeb library.

It is pretty long, but it seems to me that there is a huge amount of information there about his deconversion that would be of benefit to you in your current situation.

cheers,
Michael

ex-preacher

My wife and I agreed that she would continue to raise our kids according to her faith, but I made clear that I would not ever lie to them about what I believed. I try to avoid blunt statements, but if my kids ask a direct question, I try to give direct answers. Your son is probably stressed thinking mommy is going to burn in hell. Under those circumstances I think I would tell my child that hell doesn't really exist. My 2 cents.

Trecker

Beth,
Instead of out right contradicting the belief structure, one might try to direct a self-contradicting aspect of it to rationalize your point of view. In this case I would point out that you are a very good person that does mostly good things in your lifetime and are honestly looking for truth and are honestly saying what you see. If that god existed in which your husband and children believe, he is presumably a good god that is loving, merciful & kind to people, and not driven by a simple human ego and would be much more respectful of someone who actually looked hard to find him than believe because they are told they must believe. No good god will send you to hell! And if god were to be bad, he cannot really be bad enough. For if he be "the creator" this world is far too wonderful and beautiful in itself to be created by some being intending evil. (This argument works better if your family belongs to a sect that worships a more benign form of god rather than a juvenile/vengeful type.)

As for you saying that you are "not brave," everything I have seen you do here has been honest and brave! You deserve more than any kind words that have been written to you in this thread!

Darwin26

Your sharing, the calling out from the ruble of the ruins, granted we didn't need to get those expensive sniffer dogs, brings us in contact with each other... What is courageous?

What now the immediacy? Those nearest you, how shall you assuage their, their, their confusion ... but the one closest is inside ... what will you tell that little one inside, what advice would your give yourself? Ahhhh the leap to save them from Hell ... Do not save them . Scared and confused they'll understand... adults are all to often putting on a facade, a faux finish as it were... Oh kids see right through it ...and you'd be surprised how resiliant those little urchins can be ...
...get them a puppy ...get yourself some air...
Seek the ones who feel for your happiness not the ones you need to make happy...they never will be.


..."deserve" is often a term used by the supplicant bidder...
at one of gawds sporting events.

beth

Well, I've begun to talk to my baby sister more. We live in different counties and the high expense of toll charges have kept communication down(in state long distance is much higher than state to state tolls), but I switched to a plan the offers unlimited long distance and we've begun to talk more. She is more of an allay. She is actually proud of me but I don't understand why. I was always the brunt of her jokes before when I was a Christian. I cannot actually discuss problems because she's seventeen and she has a baby and I don't want to add any undue stress onto her, but she knows some of the situation.

So, I have her and my oldest younger brother, at least(although my brother is convinced I'm condemning myself). And we are all bonded by the same disgust for our mother.

I haven't worked out the anxiety with the kids yet, but they've been sick and distracted and have noticed that I did say a little prayer for them when they asked me too and they thank me for it.

Shake

Let me first state that I hit reply almost immediately after reading this, so I have only just skimmed over what some others have said after this.

Your children and family are important - let me stress that first - but you need to take care of #1 (yourself) first! It may be hard, but you can't let others dictate who you are.

You might want to consider an open letter to those that you truly care about (but who are avoiding you now) telling them that you are who you are and you can't be forced into changing. Let them know that you don't fault them for their beliefs or how they choose to live their lives. Submit to them that you are not asking them to follow your lead or even like where you are at in your life, but that it is your life! Say that all you are asking for is a little respect. You are still basically the same person you were before. You haven't become some maniacal sex-crazed, drug-crazy killer or anything; still beth! The support of family should be able to rise above even religious beliefs. Say that if it's not a topic that they feel can be openly discussed, then it won't be discussed. Remind them that your love for them has not changed. Ask if at worst, it would be possible to merely maintain a civil relationship, since you do still care (and hope that you are cared about, too).

IMHO, giving in will only cause bigger problems that may not either manifest themselves immediately, and could in the long run do even more damage to all involved (emotionally, mentally, and perhaps even physically), especially you. I also feel that being true to yourself and your children earn you more respect and allow you to be there more for them.

I hope I'm not rehashing too much. Hmmm... I see others have said some good things, too.

Malcolm

Hi Beth, I'm coming in here pretty late in the day too, but it is a topic I feel strongly about as well. I do think that it was extremely brave of you to open this thread in an atheist forum. And my faith in the human race has again been encouraged by the quality of replies which you have received.

Deconversion is a massive event in anyone's life, especially when they have been as closely connected to the Church as I seem to remember that you have been (as I was). The day of the dawning of the truth, when I was able to say out loud "I no longer believe in God" was a profound step for me. I was immediately elated, as though I had discovered some hidden treasure, and the initial period following my deconversion was a time of excitement - finding that I could finally be honest with myself, see people for who they really are, and start building my life based on dignity and honesty rather than continually trying to live up to an external false ideal.

But fairly soon afterwards I too began to miss the company of the believers, and paticularly the support network which I had developed over many years. I was very fortunate in that few people really took issue with me, and most remained my friends. But none-the-less I was clearly no longer an insider. For quite a long period I went through a process which I can only describe as grieving, though most of my immediate family did not condemn me. I had strong desires to return as well. As recently as last week I sat in front of the TV crying during a hymn singing programme, just being struck again at the profound change that there has been in my life. And yet, I know that I am much happier now than I ever was as a christian, I am more honest with myself, I am a more genuine person, and I am of more benefit to humanity.

One analogy that comes to mind is that of post-natal depression. Once the thrill of the new birth starts to fade, the father has gone back to work, and the mother is left on her own, it is very common for a degree of depression to set in - and in particular for a longing (usually unspoken) for the baby just to disappear, and for life to go back to the stable pre-baby state. And yet the positive benefits that come from seeing a baby grow to adulthood are overwhelming. I think that may be where you are now. I think that it will be impossible for you to truly believe again. Once you have pulled back the curtain and seen the lies on which your previous belief was based, I don't believe it is possible to forget it again.

It is an immensely difficult time, and I sympathise with you in so many ways. But I encourage you to hang in there. Your basic integrity and decency will come out in the end, and you will be respected by friends and family for the stance you have taken. I wish you well.

Malcolm