Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lunachick · 04-13-2003, 02:50 AM

It won't be long before ancient history is completely rewritten.

matthias j. · 04-13-2003, 03:34 AM

Sad day for mankind :-/

How could they be so ignorant to let this happen? Hundreds of scientists actually wrote and signed open letter to the Bush and Blair administrations asking to protect historical sites, the letter was published in several international newspapers. They knew this would happen...

Very sad day indeed

MrDarwin · 04-13-2003, 06:47 AM

On top of all the human suffering, it's a dark day for science in Iraq:

Quote:

BAGHDAD, April 12 -- At the National Museum of Antiquities, where priceless artifacts had been wrapped in foam and secured in windowless storage rooms to protect them against U.S. bombs, an army of looters perpetrated what war did not: They smashed hundreds of irreplaceable treasures, including Sumerian clay pots, Assyrian marble carvings, Babylonian statues and a massive stone tablet with intricate cuneiform writing.

As employees returned today to survey the damage at one of the world's greatest repositories of artifacts, they encountered devastation that defied their worst expectations. The floor was covered with shards of broken pottery. An extensive card catalog of every item the museum owns, some of which date back 5,000 years, was destroyed. A cavernous storeroom housing thousands of unclassified pieces was ransacked so badly that an archaeologist predicted it would be impossible to repair many of the items.

Does anybody still think that this war was better than any other possible alternative?

Jesse · 04-13-2003, 07:04 AM

MrDarwin:
Does anybody still think that this war was better than any other possible alternative?

Well, put it this way--if the cost of liberating France from the Nazis was the destruction of the Louvre, would you say it the invasion wasn't worth it? Certainly quite a lot of historical buildings were destroyed during the liberation of Europe, although I think most other forms of art were protected. To me the huge amount of death and suffering that is stopped when a horrible dictatorship like Hussein's is deposed outweighs the loss of artifacts here.

Of course, it needn't have been an either/or--Coalition military forces should have had a plan to prevent the worst forms of looting, protecting museums, banks, etc. So this is very unfortunate and unecessary. On the plus side, I would guess that not much historical information has been lost--there are probably detailed records, photographic and otherwise, of all these artifacts. But there's always a chance that science will come up with new tests in the future that could have yielded valuable new information if applied to some of these artifacts.

MrDarwin · 04-13-2003, 07:07 AM

A Nazi comparison already. Well, that was a short discussion.

Friar Bellows · 04-13-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
MrDarwin:
[i]Of course, it needn't have been an either/or--Coalition military forces should have had a plan to prevent the worst forms of looting, protecting museums, banks, etc. So this is very unfortunate and unecessary.

They're learning. Next time they'll get it right.

Jesse · 04-13-2003, 07:28 AM

You don't think the Baath party merits comparison to the Nazis, despite mass killings, widespread torture, a brutal police state, etc.? The Baath party even has roots in Nazism:

Saddam's regime is a European import

Quote:

In the Western world, knowledge of history is poor -- and the awareness of history is frequently poorer. For example, people often argue today as if the kind of political order that prevails in Iraq is part of the immemorial Arab and Islamic tradition. This is totally untrue. The kind of regime represented by Saddam Hussein has no roots in either the Arab or Islamic past. Rather, it is an ideological importation from Europe -- the only one that worked and succeeded (at least in the sense of being able to survive).

In 1940, the French government accepted defeat and signed a separate peace with the Third Reich. The French colonies in Syria and Lebanon remained under Vichy control, and were therefore open to the Nazis to do what they wished. They became major bases for Nazi propaganda and activity in the Middle East. The Nazis extended their operations from Syria and Lebanon, with some success, to Iraq and other places. That was the time when the Baath Party was founded, as a kind of clone of the Nazi and Fascist parties, using very similar methods and adapting a very similar ideology, and operating in the same way -- as part of an apparatus of surveillance that exists under a one-party state, where a party is not a party in the Western democratic sense, but part of the apparatus of a government. That was the origin of the Baath Party.

Sojourner553 · 04-13-2003, 07:57 AM

You just have to know the Bush Administration's priorities:
Why the Oil Ministry received great protection I read:

Quote:

At Baghdad's Antiquities Museum
'Our Heritage Is Finished'
Looters Destroyed What War Did Not

...

"As throngs of angry and impoverished Iraqis sack government offices and private businesses, making away with everything from porcelain bathtubs and police uniforms to forklifts and ambulances, it has become increasingly clear that the looting that was sparked by the fall of Saddam Hussein's government -- largely unchecked by U.S. forces -- has wreaked more damage on Iraq's civilian infrastructure and economy than three weeks of U.S. bombing.

The damage could have a significant effect on the Bush administration's military and political goals in Iraq, complicating efforts to win the trust of ordinary people, return cities to normalcy and eventually reconstruct the country. Many here feel U.S. forces in the city -- Army units on the western side of the Tigris River and Marines on the eastern side -- could and should be doing more to crack down on looting. As the mayhem continues, they have begun shifting blame for the lawlessness from their fellow countrymen to U.S. troops.
...

"If there were five American soldiers at the door, everything would have been fine," Amin said about the museum. "They're supposed to be here to protect us. They should be protecting us."

,,,
U.S. military commanders contend they are doing as much as they can to stem the thievery. But they acknowledge they do not have enough troops to patrol every looting-prone part of the city while also focusing on stamping out lingering pockets of resistance and guarding against suicide attacks.

Some Iraqis, however, question the allocation of U.S. forces around the capital. They note a whole company of Marines, along with at least a half-dozen amphibious assault vehicles, has been assigned to guard the Oil Ministry, while many other ministries -- including trade, information, planning, health and education -- remain unprotected.

"Why just the oil ministry?" Jaf asked. "Is it because they just want our oil?"

'''

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Apr12.html

New Atheist · 04-13-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
You don't think the Baath party merits comparison to the Nazis, despite mass killings, widespread torture, a brutal police state, etc.? The Baath party even has roots in Nazism:

Of course the Nazis actually started a war against France first, for you to 'liberate' France... and the Nazis were actually some sort of real danger, and there was an actual reason to go to war with them?

pug846 · 04-13-2003, 08:16 AM

I don�t know what is more disturbing: (a) the fact that important historical pieces that are a vital link to the past have been lost forever, or (b) someone felt the need to call this one, �without a doubt one of the greatest crimes perpetuated against humanity.�

I�m curious as to why the US hasn�t done more to stop the looting � it seems it would be fairly easy, but I assume their reasoning is that it would open up their soldiers to be sitting targets. (They probably also don�t want to get stuck in situations where they have to fire to protect themselves from looting. That�s the last thing they need right now.) It should be interesting to see what Fox �News� has to say about this. I�ll also be interested to see what statement Bush releases.

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04-13-2003, 02:50 AM	#21
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	It won't be long before ancient history is completely rewritten.

04-13-2003, 03:34 AM	#22
matthias j. Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Belgium/Ghent Posts: 191	Sad day for mankind :-/ How could they be so ignorant to let this happen? Hundreds of scientists actually wrote and signed open letter to the Bush and Blair administrations asking to protect historical sites, the letter was published in several international newspapers. They knew this would happen... Very sad day indeed

04-13-2003, 07:04 AM	#24
Jesse Moderator - Science Discussions Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Providence, RI, USA Posts: 9,908	MrDarwin: Does anybody still think that this war was better than any other possible alternative? Well, put it this way--if the cost of liberating France from the Nazis was the destruction of the Louvre, would you say it the invasion wasn't worth it? Certainly quite a lot of historical buildings were destroyed during the liberation of Europe, although I think most other forms of art were protected. To me the huge amount of death and suffering that is stopped when a horrible dictatorship like Hussein's is deposed outweighs the loss of artifacts here. Of course, it needn't have been an either/or--Coalition military forces should have had a plan to prevent the worst forms of looting, protecting museums, banks, etc. So this is very unfortunate and unecessary. On the plus side, I would guess that not much historical information has been lost--there are probably detailed records, photographic and otherwise, of all these artifacts. But there's always a chance that science will come up with new tests in the future that could have yielded valuable new information if applied to some of these artifacts.

04-13-2003, 07:07 AM	#25
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	A Nazi comparison already. Well, that was a short discussion.

04-13-2003, 08:16 AM	#30
pug846 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,587	I don�t know what is more disturbing: (a) the fact that important historical pieces that are a vital link to the past have been lost forever, or (b) someone felt the need to call this one, �without a doubt one of the greatest crimes perpetuated against humanity.� I�m curious as to why the US hasn�t done more to stop the looting � it seems it would be fairly easy, but I assume their reasoning is that it would open up their soldiers to be sitting targets. (They probably also don�t want to get stuck in situations where they have to fire to protect themselves from looting. That�s the last thing they need right now.) It should be interesting to see what Fox �News� has to say about this. I�ll also be interested to see what statement Bush releases.

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