Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 01-23-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LuckyCharm
This is hell; [...] to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned.

Is that article saying that all unsaved people will be in heaven too, but hating it? I don't get it

Helen

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB · 01-23-2003, 11:30 AM

Greetings LC,

Orignally posted by LC:
"Well, I certainly hope that was cathartic for you, HQB. Interesting that you chose, not to respond to my last post addressed to you (which if you'll recall, you requested), nor to anything else I wrote yesterday, but to something I didn't write and only offered as a possible alternative viewpoint for the curious."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, point taken. My sincerest appologies.

"As pure Love, it gives God pleasure to bestow that love on us, His creatures. Our greatest destiny and calling in life is to live within that love. But we've missed that calling -- we've gone astray, followed our own path, rebelled and rejected that beautiful destiny. And look what we've gotten for it! A world torn by war, strife, greed, enmity, and sorrow. Yet God, out of mercy and love, has embarked on a grand plan to lead us back -- back to the only place we will ever be truly happy, which is within His very heart of love."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Save me the sob story. As I've said before, there is nothing
that can logically impair the ability of an omnipotent God to have exactly the kind of world He wants. You say your God is pure love. Someone else says God is an evil troll, laughing heartily as His foolish creations destroy each other, and sending down the occasional natural disaster, just for shits and giggles.

Evidence for either of your claims? 0%

Ahhh yes, and the infinite love of a God who must sacrifice Himself to Himself to satisfy His wrath for a situation that He, with absolute forknowledge, created. You'll pardon me if I find the concept to be less than palatable.

"To expand on that a bit, God doesn't demand our devotion for His own sake, but for ours. He is already pure, infinite love, and there is no way we as creatures can "add" to His love."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HORSESHIT.

According to standard Christian doctrine, every action of a believer, no matter how small or insignificant, must be done to give God Glory. Puny sinful man is not allowed any credit. "All glory to God", they say. And LC, you still haven't expained exactly how self loathing and fawning adulation to an invisible Sky Daddy are in any way beneficial to humanity. Most Christians I've spoken with, including most evengelicals and fundies, will tell you that, since we were created in the image of God, He shares all of our emotions. That would include the good ones, like love and compassion, and the not so good ones, like anger, jealousy, and, of course, pride. All of these emotions are magnified to an infinite degree. Hmmmmmmmm. A God of infinite compassion and infinite ego and pride.

"God knows how we are made. We are designed, as my denomination teaches, to love and serve Him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhhhh yes, serve Him. Thank you for your help. Of course, no ego problems in that kind of God, eh?

And 2+2=5.

"Anything else leads to death and destruction by default. God wants us to have life, and love, and joy, and peace -- he earnestly desires that for us!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Sob*. Stop it! I'm getting tears on my keyboard!

Of course, God is too proud to actually tell me His wonderful plans Himself-oh wait, that's a good thing, because-why else, its God doing it!

And of course, we know from scientifically sound experimentation that Death entered the world when A&E ate a fruit. Yup, so A&E's mistake ment that my guinea pig rusty had to die when I was in 2nd Grade. Bastards! Damn, why didn't I think of this earlier?

"It is a long, painstaking process, and rarely do we cooperate as we ought. But God is infinitely patient, and He will not be satisfied with anything less than the best and brightest destiny that He has prepared for us."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does God love those He burns in Hell? If yes, what kind of love is that? If no, how can you say He is infinitely patient?

And as for "best and brightest destinies", well, I guess the 800,000 in Rwanda, most of whom were Christians, who were sliced n'diced like Christmas Hams met their brightest destinies. How could it be otherwise? You still haven't explained how an All Powerful God could:

A. Have wants at all-to want something means one is lacking something, and what, exactly, is the omnipotent Yahweh lacking, praytell?
B. Have His wants thwarted-who could possibly stand in His way?

"Oh well, it looks like you at least had fun ridiculing the beliefs you imagine me to hold. And since I have a personal policy against debating other people's erroneous assumptions about me, I am content to allow you to think whatever you like about that."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From your posts, LC, I assume you're a Christian, and a quite devout one at that. How, exactly, am I making "erroneous assumptions" about you? My post was accerbic, to be sure, but it wasn't directed as a personal affront to you. After all, if Christians can "hate the sin-love the sinner", do I not have a right to "hate the religion-love the religionist"?

Emotional? You bet! Cathartic? Somewhat, though not as much for me, since I was never subjected to the emotional abuse of fundie Christianity. My points about your relatives were based upon the commonly understood dogma that all those who don't accept Christ go to Hell, period. If you don't believe that, well, more power to you, but you sure as hell ain't reading the same Bible I am. My exhortations to imagine your own relatives in the firey furnace were not ment to insult, or to cause you anguish, merely to make you think about the full ramifications of what you believe. I will take you to task for what you post, as you will for what I post. My style is obvously different from yours. Just don't confuse my scorn for what I percieve Christianity to be with scorn for you.
Honestly, no offense ment!
Respect,
HQB

LuckyCharm · 01-29-2003, 08:51 PM

Hello, folks!

I didn't think I'd have time to post at all before I go off to the war, but here I am on hold with the phone company, trying to disconnect my service, and thought I'd drop you all a line!

Unfortunately, I don't have time to respond to each post point-by-point, individually. But I did want to share a document with you that expresses a view of sin, atonement, and salvation very different from what some of you may envision, and one amazingly close to my own. This scholar just took my breath away with her clear and thorough treatment of Thomas Aquinas's writings on the subject. I'm attaching the file.

Heather, to answer your question, yes, I believe that to those whose hearts are hardened to it, even heaven will be hell. Even more so. In the words of Saint Teresa, "All the way to heaven is heaven." So, some of us are in it already, here and now, and eagerly moving forward in that journey toward fuller realization; others are bitter, sad, resentful, and hostile, and the magnification of those feelings throughout their lifetimes and throughout eternity will create their own hell, which will be made all the more painful with the knowledge that others are truly happy.

Take care of yourselves, and of each other!

~~Cheryl

LuckyCharm · 01-29-2003, 08:56 PM

Merde, my doc was a .DOC file, and that's not allowed to post here. Oh well... take care, all!

~~Cheryl

emur · 01-31-2003, 06:10 AM

Posted by LC:

Quote:

Heather, to answer your question, yes, I believe that to those whose hearts are hardened to it, even heaven will be hell. Even more so. In the words of Saint Teresa, "All the way to heaven is heaven." So, some of us are in it already, here and now, and eagerly moving forward in that journey toward fuller realization; others are bitter, sad, resentful, and hostile, and the magnification of those feelings throughout their lifetimes and throughout eternity will create their own hell, which will be made all the more painful with the knowledge that others are truly happy.

I'm sure Heather is supposed to be Helen.

I know LC is no longer able to respond, but I have to say something here because the above attitude is prevalent among Christians. The implication is, if someone has problems with the way Christians behave and with the Christian view of God as given by LC in this thread, then you are angry, bitter, etc.

This is a ploy which seeks to marginalize the opposition and make their arguments suspect. Instead of having to deal with an opponent's arguments, just claim they don't believe the "right" way because they are angry and bitter. If they just let that go, then they would believe "correctly".

Also implied is the idea that some don't want to see Christians happy, and that is why their believe system is challenged. Speaking for myself, I have no problem with Christians being happy. I do have a problem with Christians mistreating others. LC totally misses the point.

Mel

01-29-2003, 08:51 PM	#33
LuckyCharm Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tacoma, Washington, USA Posts: 32	Farewell post Hello, folks! I didn't think I'd have time to post at all before I go off to the war, but here I am on hold with the phone company, trying to disconnect my service, and thought I'd drop you all a line! Unfortunately, I don't have time to respond to each post point-by-point, individually. But I did want to share a document with you that expresses a view of sin, atonement, and salvation very different from what some of you may envision, and one amazingly close to my own. This scholar just took my breath away with her clear and thorough treatment of Thomas Aquinas's writings on the subject. I'm attaching the file. Heather, to answer your question, yes, I believe that to those whose hearts are hardened to it, even heaven will be hell. Even more so. In the words of Saint Teresa, "All the way to heaven is heaven." So, some of us are in it already, here and now, and eagerly moving forward in that journey toward fuller realization; others are bitter, sad, resentful, and hostile, and the magnification of those feelings throughout their lifetimes and throughout eternity will create their own hell, which will be made all the more painful with the knowledge that others are truly happy. Take care of yourselves, and of each other! ~~Cheryl

01-29-2003, 08:56 PM	#34
LuckyCharm Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tacoma, Washington, USA Posts: 32	Never mind... Merde, my doc was a .DOC file, and that's not allowed to post here. Oh well... take care, all! ~~Cheryl

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01-23-2003, 11:30 AM	#32
THE_LEGENDARY_HQB Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tewksbury, Mass., USA Posts: 170	Greetings LC, Orignally posted by LC: "Well, I certainly hope that was cathartic for you, HQB. Interesting that you chose, not to respond to my last post addressed to you (which if you'll recall, you requested), nor to anything else I wrote yesterday, but to something I didn't write and only offered as a possible alternative viewpoint for the curious." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ OK, point taken. My sincerest appologies. "As pure Love, it gives God pleasure to bestow that love on us, His creatures. Our greatest destiny and calling in life is to live within that love. But we've missed that calling -- we've gone astray, followed our own path, rebelled and rejected that beautiful destiny. And look what we've gotten for it! A world torn by war, strife, greed, enmity, and sorrow. Yet God, out of mercy and love, has embarked on a grand plan to lead us back -- back to the only place we will ever be truly happy, which is within His very heart of love." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Save me the sob story. As I've said before, there is nothing that can logically impair the ability of an omnipotent God to have exactly the kind of world He wants. You say your God is pure love. Someone else says God is an evil troll, laughing heartily as His foolish creations destroy each other, and sending down the occasional natural disaster, just for shits and giggles. Evidence for either of your claims? 0% Ahhh yes, and the infinite love of a God who must sacrifice Himself to Himself to satisfy His wrath for a situation that He, with absolute forknowledge, created. You'll pardon me if I find the concept to be less than palatable. "To expand on that a bit, God doesn't demand our devotion for His own sake, but for ours. He is already pure, infinite love, and there is no way we as creatures can "add" to His love." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HORSESHIT. According to standard Christian doctrine, every action of a believer, no matter how small or insignificant, must be done to give God Glory. Puny sinful man is not allowed any credit. "All glory to God", they say. And LC, you still haven't expained exactly how self loathing and fawning adulation to an invisible Sky Daddy are in any way beneficial to humanity. Most Christians I've spoken with, including most evengelicals and fundies, will tell you that, since we were created in the image of God, He shares all of our emotions. That would include the good ones, like love and compassion, and the not so good ones, like anger, jealousy, and, of course, pride. All of these emotions are magnified to an infinite degree. Hmmmmmmmm. A God of infinite compassion and infinite ego and pride. "God knows how we are made. We are designed, as my denomination teaches, to love and serve Him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ahhhhh yes, serve Him. Thank you for your help. Of course, no ego problems in that kind of God, eh? And 2+2=5. "Anything else leads to death and destruction by default. God wants us to have life, and love, and joy, and peace -- he earnestly desires that for us!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sob. Stop it! I'm getting tears on my keyboard! Of course, God is too proud to actually tell me His wonderful plans Himself-oh wait, that's a good thing, because-why else, its God doing it! And of course, we know from scientifically sound experimentation that Death entered the world when A&E ate a fruit. Yup, so A&E's mistake ment that my guinea pig rusty had to die when I was in 2nd Grade. Bastards! Damn, why didn't I think of this earlier? "It is a long, painstaking process, and rarely do we cooperate as we ought. But God is infinitely patient, and He will not be satisfied with anything less than the best and brightest destiny that He has prepared for us." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Does God love those He burns in Hell? If yes, what kind of love is that? If no, how can you say He is infinitely patient? And as for "best and brightest destinies", well, I guess the 800,000 in Rwanda, most of whom were Christians, who were sliced n'diced like Christmas Hams met their brightest destinies. How could it be otherwise? You still haven't explained how an All Powerful God could: A. Have wants at all-to want something means one is lacking something, and what, exactly, is the omnipotent Yahweh lacking, praytell? B. Have His wants thwarted-who could possibly stand in His way? "Oh well, it looks like you at least had fun ridiculing the beliefs you imagine me to hold. And since I have a personal policy against debating other people's erroneous assumptions about me, I am content to allow you to think whatever you like about that." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From your posts, LC, I assume you're a Christian, and a quite devout one at that. How, exactly, am I making "erroneous assumptions" about you? My post was accerbic, to be sure, but it wasn't directed as a personal affront to you. After all, if Christians can "hate the sin-love the sinner", do I not have a right to "hate the religion-love the religionist"? Emotional? You bet! Cathartic? Somewhat, though not as much for me, since I was never subjected to the emotional abuse of fundie Christianity. My points about your relatives were based upon the commonly understood dogma that all those who don't accept Christ go to Hell, period. If you don't believe that, well, more power to you, but you sure as hell ain't reading the same Bible I am. My exhortations to imagine your own relatives in the firey furnace were not ment to insult, or to cause you anguish, merely to make you think about the full ramifications of what you believe. I will take you to task for what you post, as you will for what I post. My style is obvously different from yours. Just don't confuse my scorn for what I percieve Christianity to be with scorn for you. Honestly, no offense ment! Respect, HQB

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