ex-preacher

FYI, luvluv is a "he."

luvluv

Madmax: I attempted to give you an objective example of what is coercive. You then went on to state that coercion is subjective and cannot be objectively defined. Quoting you, from page 2:

"Luvluv, coercion is a subjective thing. What one person finds coercive may not be coercive to someone else and vice versa."

You continue to ask me to objectively define something you claim cannot be objectively defined. My answer to that, as it has been since page 2, was that yes some humans would find chocolate coercive and some would not... but there is not a single human being who would not find the revealed tortures of hell to be coercive. That is counter-intuitive to everything we know about humanity. My argument has always been that a REVEALED HELL or REVEALED OMNIPOTENCE would be coercive to the great mass of humanity. Do you disagree with that?

And yes, I am a man. All day long and twice on Sundays.

Koya, the arguments you've laid out are circumstantial at best. The quotations where the Bible writers went on to mention mercy and other things could well be interpreted as clauses fleshing out the meaning of the word fear. It may be more productive for us to resolve this on the biblical archeology thread, as it is frequented by Bible scholars. I'll start a thread over there if you like. But the bottom line is, most Christians, now and throughout history, have interpreted the word fear to connotate respect. I can't help what you feel it stands for, church history has always considered that to mean reverance and not terror. Go to a local church, ask around, and see how many Christians believe that the word fear in those parts of the Bible should be interpreted as "terrified into obedience". As I said, Christians consider personal revelation and church history to be as relevant in revealing the character of God as the Bible. Read in the context of my personal relationship with God and the history of the interpretation of the word "fear" by the church, the term means respect. If that is not good enough for you, then I'm sorry. But I maintain if you think those passages in the Bible are evidence that a main theme of Christianity is that God desires his followers to be terrified into obedience, you are simply wrong.

MadMordigan

Waffle waffle waffle. One can redefine fear to mean love and punishment ton mean mercy and threats to mean warnings. But no one is going to take you seriously. At best, this is the work of delusion. At worst, it is an outright lie.

Still waiting on our wager.

madmax2976

I don't want an "example". I want you to show that something being "coercive" is an objective fact and not just a matter of opinion - even if everyone in the world holds the same opinion.

I will state quite firmly that I would NOT be "coerced" by the mere knowledge that a deity actually exists - UNLESS along with that knowledge, comes the information that the deity is going to cause me harm in some way. OR unless the deity promises me some great gain.

Don't forget, coercion doesn't have to just be implemented with negative consequences. You can coerce people with positive consequences as well. But it does take potential consequences in order for any coercing to be going on at all.

Now you can refuse to believe me when I say wouldn't be coerced, and thats just fine. I'd be happy to set up a test at your earliest convenience. Until you do, it'll just be your opinion against mine and mine's going to win out of course.

The point being luvluv, that your attempted argument to explain away the ambiguity surrounding the existence of the deity you believe exists is about as weak as they come. I have no reason to believe the knowledge that a deity exists would be at all unduly coercive. Hec, I think it would a good thing and I'd be very curious about how such a being functions and operates and what it thinks about. I readily take the opportunity to ask it a whole bunch of questions.

<strong> Actually I couldn't care less about your definitions. I want you to argue for your case and all the implications that go along with it.

<strong> Right. So your deity does coerce people with the threat of eternal torture - even though he doesn't actually provide us with Kodak snapshots or VHS tapes. I'm glad we've gotten that cleared up.

<strong> What I don't understand is why you resort to a straw man. Who said anything about "revealed" anything. I just want the existence of this deity to be unambigious. As long as it is, I'm being completely reasonable in not believing it exists.

If I have to worry about the repercussions of not believing in a deity while I'm being reasonable in doing so, then we're all screwed, as this deity would be a twisted, evil monster.

<strong> Well with a handle like "luvluv" I just figured you be female. Yikes!

Koyaanisqatsi

ALL of your arguments are circumstantial at best, luvluv, since we're dealing with the Bible, so you pointing this out is irrelevant.

The bible states succinctly and unquestionably that you are to be afraid of God.

Be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The fact that you continue to deny this only speaks to your own desperation, I'm afraid, so I suggest you just take your own apologetics to their logical conclusion and create your own cult based entirely upon your own whim, as that is what is happening anyway.

luvluv

MadMordigan:

You'll excuse me but as I argue with a lot of people on here somethings get lost.

What exactly was our wager?

madmax:

Just throw the word "coercive" out, okay? Throw it completely out. Disregard it. Omit it. Fuhgetaboutit.

God will not accept any commitment to Him which is not based on love for Him. If you accept Him because of his power, which would be evident if He revealed His existence, that is not acceptable. He cannot reveal Himself without compelling BILLIONS of people to try to obey Him just because they know of His power. And again, He cannot prove His existence without us knowing, by extension, that Hell and Heaven are real.

Get it? Got it? Good.

Koya:

I am monolingual, so I only am aware of one language in which to repeatedly tell you that Christians can believe things which are beyond the Bible and have been doing so for thousands of years. If I knew other languages, I would attempt to talk to you in them, because it is apparent you aren't reading it when I type it in English. It is the confirmed, long-lasting, and traditional view of Christianity that you can believe things which are not in the Bible.

MadMordigan

luvluv:

I'm betting I can find as many verses as He quoted from the Bible with the words "Fear not" in the title, were I so inclined.

One's that refer to your god? I'll take that bet.

luvluv

Genesis


Genesis 15:1
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, FEAR NOT, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward.

Genesis 21:17
And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? FEAR NOT; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he [is].

Genesis 26:24
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I [am] the God of Abraham thy father: FEAR NOT, for I [am] with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

Genesis 35:17
And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, FEAR NOT; thou shalt have this son also.

Genesis 43:23
And he said, Peace [be] to you, FEAR NOT: your God, and the God of your father, hath given you treasure in your sacks: I had your money. And he brought Simeon out unto them.

Genesis 46:3
And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: FEAR NOT to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:


Exodus


Exodus 20:20
And Moses said unto the people, FEAR NOT: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.


Deuteronomy


Deuteronomy 1:21
Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up [and] possess [it], as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; FEAR NOT, neither be discouraged.

Deuteronomy 20:3
And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, FEAR NOT, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;

Deuteronomy 31:6
Be strong and of a good courage, FEAR NOT, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Deuteronomy 31:8
And the LORD, he [it is] that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: FEAR NOT, neither be dismayed.


Joshua


Joshua 8:1
And the LORD said unto Joshua, FEAR NOT, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land:


Judges


Judges 6:10
And I said unto you, I [am] the LORD your God; FEAR NOT the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice.

Judges 6:23
And the LORD said unto him, Peace [be] unto thee; FEAR NOT: thou shalt not die.


Ruth


Ruth 3:11
And now, my daughter, FEAR NOT; I will do to thee all that thou requirest: for all the city of my people doth know that thou [art] a virtuous woman.


1 Samuel


1 Samuel 12:20
And Samuel said unto the people, FEAR NOT: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart;

1 Samuel 22:23
Abide thou with me, FEAR NOT: for he that seeketh my life seeketh thy life: but with me thou [shalt be] in safeguard


1 Kings


1 Kings 17:13
And Elijah said unto her, FEAR NOT; go [and] do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring [it] unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.


2 Kings


2 Kings 6:16
And he answered, FEAR NOT: for they that [be] with us [are] more than they that [be] with them.

2 Kings 25:24
And Gedaliah sware to them, and to their men, and said unto them, FEAR NOT to be the servants of the Chaldees: dwell in the land, and serve the king of Babylon; and it shall be well with you.


1 Chronicles


1 Chronicles 28:20
And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do [it]: FEAR NOT, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, [even] my God, [will be] with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.


2 Chronicles


2 Chronicles 20:17
Ye shall not [need] to fight in this [battle]: set yourselves, stand ye [still], and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: FEAR NOT, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD [will be] with you.


Psalms


Ecclesiastes


Isaiah


Isaiah 7:4
And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; FEAR NOT, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.

Isaiah 35:4
Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, FEAR NOT: behold, your God will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompence; he will come and save you.

Isaiah 41:13
For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, FEAR NOT; I will help thee.

Isaiah 41:14
FEAR NOT, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, FEAR NOT: for I have redeemed thee, I have called [thee] by thy name; thou [art] mine.

Isaiah 43:5
FEAR NOT: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Isaiah 44:2
Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; FEAR NOT, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 54:4
FEAR NOT; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.


Jeremiah


Jeremiah 40:9
And Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan sware unto them and to their men, saying, FEAR NOT to serve the Chaldeans: dwell in the land, and serve the king of Babylon, and it shall be well with you.

Jeremiah 46:27
But FEAR NOT thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make [him] afraid.


Lamentations


Lamentations 3:57
Thou drewest near in the day [that] I called upon thee: thou saidst, FEAR NOT.


Daniel


Daniel 10:12
Then said he unto me, FEAR NOT, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

Daniel 10:19
And said, O man greatly beloved, FEAR NOT: peace [be] unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.


Joel


Joel 2:21
FEAR NOT, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.


Zechariah


Zechariah 8:13
And it shall come to pass, [that] as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: FEAR NOT, [but] let your hands be strong.

Matthew


Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, FEAR NOT to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


Matthew 28:5
And the angel answered and said unto the women, FEAR NOT ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.


Luke


Luke 1:13
But the angel said unto him, FEAR NOT, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luke 1:30
And the angel said unto her, FEAR NOT, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luke 2:10
And the angel said unto them, FEAR NOT: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Luke 5:10
And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, FEAR NOT; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

Luke 8:50
But when Jesus heard [it], he answered him, saying, FEAR NOT: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Luke 12:7
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. FEAR NOT therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:32
FEAR NOT, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.


John


John 12:15
FEAR NOT, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.


Acts


Acts 27:24
Saying, FEAR NOT, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.


Revelation


Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, FEAR NOT; I am the first and the last:

That's 49 to 33 in favor of Fear nots, by my count.

Moreover, here is a specific Biblical reproach against those who simply fear God in the sense you are describing:

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Here John seems to state that anyone who's love for God entails too much fear (as in terror or intimidation) does not perfectly love Him yet.

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

madmax2976

Yeah I got it. I just wish you could support it apart from your mere opinion. You certainly haven't provided any arguments as to why anyone else should accept these blatant, unsupportable assertions.

Nor have you convincingly presented any reason for us to not conclude this characterization would be contradictory in regards to the biblical deity and how it is described there.

Perhaps if you think about these things for a while you'll "get it", which would be very good indeed.

hal9000

Interesting that luvluv and Atticus avoid <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000122" target="_blank">This thread.</a> This is a line of thought they have no answer for. But you wouldn’t be the first theist to fail to find an answer to this thread, and you won’t be the last.