Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Keith · 02-24-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy

"Keith, are you picking on bats for a specific reason?"

Well, mainly just for the sake of trying to stay focused on a manifestation of what I see as a clear indication of intelligent design as it relates to the TOE. IOW, if the TOE is basically correct, evolution is clearly a process displaying design, order, intelligence, and purpose.

Keith

Principia · 02-24-2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Keith: Well, mainly just for the sake of trying to stay focused on a manifestation of what I see as a clear indication of intelligent design as it relates to the TOE. IOW, if the TOE is basically correct, evolution is clearly a process displaying design, order, intelligence, and purpose.

Well, Keith, I am not sure what evidence you really need if your argument already begins with the premise that "evolution is basically correct." So, perhaps you can flesh it out for us: How exactly do evolutionary processes display clear signs of intelligence and purpose?

Principia · 02-24-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Amos: That's fair enough but then don't use the word select because this verb implies that a choice was made by an organism.

Sorry, I don't think I can help you here.

PotatoError · 02-24-2003, 01:05 PM

Keith: "OW, if the TOE is basically correct, evolution is clearly a process displaying design, order, intelligence, and purpose."

Evolution does display design but so does gravity.
Evolution does display order but so does gravity.

Evolution does NOT display intelligence just like gravity does not display intelligence. Evolution is a dumb process. Like how a rainbow forms is a dumb process. Evolution might seem to have intelligence behind it but it really doesn't. It is simply a very complicated algorithm that takes place because of the laws of physics and chemistry - not to mention biology.

Without intelligence there can be no purpose. Evolution has no purpose. it is a process and processes cannot think.

Remember that if it wasn't for a meteor 65 million years ago, the dinosaurs would still be around today and humans and intellience would not have existed. There are countless other catastrophic events throughout history which have changed the course of evolution. Evolution had nothing to do with these events and so it definitely could not have planned humans to exist today.

Starboy · 02-24-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
Well, mainly just for the sake of trying to stay focused on a manifestation of what I see as a clear indication of intelligent design as it relates to the TOE. IOW, if the TOE is basically correct, evolution is clearly a process displaying design, order, intelligence, and purpose.

Keith

Keith, consider the possibity that there may be more than two possible explanations for the fossil record and life on the planet as we know it. If TOE is shown to be wrong in the case of bats that doesn't make creationism the next best explanation.

Starboy

Keith · 02-24-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Principia

"Well, Keith, I am not sure what evidence you really need if your argument already begins with the premise that "evolution is basically correct." So, perhaps you can flesh it out for us: How exactly do evolutionary processes display clear signs of intelligence and purpose?"

You're getting one step ahead of me here. First, I need to hear some reason why, if the process involves PE, millions of years of time have to be required. What I'm specifically trying to get from any or all of you is a rough estimate of the time it probably took for some particular species of bat-ear to develop. It doesn't matter to me which species of bat. Even a very crude estimate would be helpful.

Keith

nogods4me · 02-24-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
IOW, if the TOE is basically correct, evolution is clearly a process displaying design, order, intelligence, and purpose.

Keith

If there is design, it is in many cases poor design, which does not reflect well on the intelligence of the designer.

I would like to see some examples of what you consider design and order in nature. If you do not mind.

Starboy · 02-24-2003, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
You're getting one step ahead of me here. First, I need to hear some reason why, if the process involves PE, millions of years of time have to be required. What I'm specifically trying to get from any or all of you is a rough estimate of the time it probably took for some particular species of bat-ear to develop. It doesn't matter to me which species of bat. Even a very crude estimate would be helpful.

Keith

Or your presumptions could be a case of trying to extrapolate too much from too little data. Not much is known about the fossil record of bats.

Chiroptera fossil record

Starboy

Keith · 02-24-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy

"Keith, consider the possibity that there may be more than two possible explanations for the fossil record and life on the planet as we know it. If TOE is shown to be wrong in the case of bats that doesn't make creationism the next best explanation."

I agree with your logic, and I would add that if TOE is shown to be wrong in the case of bats then TOE should be viewed with suspicion as it relates to other creatures as well.

Keith

John Page · 02-24-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
I agree with your logic, and I would add that if TOE is shown to be wrong in the case of bats then TOE should be viewed with suspicion as it relates to other creatures as well.

Keith:

What I feel you should have posted is "Clearly, the apparent system of evolution is part of god's grand design."

Cheers, John

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02-24-2003, 01:05 PM	#64
PotatoError Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: england Posts: 51	Keith: "OW, if the TOE is basically correct, evolution is clearly a process displaying design, order, intelligence, and purpose." Evolution does display design but so does gravity. Evolution does display order but so does gravity. Evolution does NOT display intelligence just like gravity does not display intelligence. Evolution is a dumb process. Like how a rainbow forms is a dumb process. Evolution might seem to have intelligence behind it but it really doesn't. It is simply a very complicated algorithm that takes place because of the laws of physics and chemistry - not to mention biology. Without intelligence there can be no purpose. Evolution has no purpose. it is a process and processes cannot think. Remember that if it wasn't for a meteor 65 million years ago, the dinosaurs would still be around today and humans and intellience would not have existed. There are countless other catastrophic events throughout history which have changed the course of evolution. Evolution had nothing to do with these events and so it definitely could not have planned humans to exist today.

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