Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Blinn · 10-24-2002, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:
50$ says this quote will be used...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chi-Hing C. (Chris) Cheng of the U. of I. department of molecular and integrative physiology. "They are taken and reassembled into a new gene, with nothing really new being created.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

"The antifreeze glycoprotein came about differently, taking two parts of its ancestor, trypsinogen [a digestive enzyme produced by the pancreas], but those two parts did not form the new protein," she said. "The new protein came from building from the ground up a very short sequence in the middle, and going through repeated duplications to form the building blocks of the antifreeze glycoprotein."

I suppose they could say that about the above too, but then their strawman seems to be: truly novel information would not be descended from previously existing genetic material, rather it would just poof into existence. It's almost as if they're requesting genes not constructed from A, G, C, or T, because there is obviously nothing new there.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Zetek ]

theyeti · 10-24-2002, 06:42 AM

While we're at it...

<a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/7/4448" target="_blank">PNAS. USA, Vol. 99, Issue 7, 4448-4453, April 2, 2002</a>

Origin of sphinx, a young chimeric RNA gene in Drosophila melanogaster

Quote:

Non-protein-coding RNA genes play an important role in various biological processes. How new RNA genes originated and whether this process is controlled by similar evolutionary mechanisms for the origin of protein-coding genes remains unclear. A young chimeric RNA gene that we term sphinx (spx) provides the first insight into the early stage of evolution of RNA genes. spx originated as an insertion of a retroposed sequence of the ATP synthase chain F gene at the cytological region 60DB since the divergence of Drosophila melanogaster from its sibling species 2-3 million years ago. This retrosequence, which is located at 102F on the fourth chromosome, recruited a nearby exon and intron, thereby evolving a chimeric gene structure. This molecular process suggests that the mechanism of exon shuffling, which can generate protein-coding genes, also plays a role in the origin of RNA genes. The subsequent evolutionary process of spx has been associated with a high nucleotide substitution rate, possibly driven by a continuous positive Darwinian selection for a novel function, as is shown in its sex- and development-specific alternative splicing. To test whether spx has adapted to different environments, we investigated its population genetic structure in the unique "Evolution Canyon" in Israel, revealing a similar haplotype structure in spx, and thus similar evolutionary forces operating on spx between environments.

I could spend all day quoting similar abstracts. Mortal Wombat has already provided a few good ones.

theyeti

RufusAtticus · 10-24-2002, 07:00 AM

This is my stock responce to this creationist misconception as revealed in an email to a 15-yro.

INFORMATION
Individuals don't evolve. Populations do. So in linking information theory to evolution, you must consider the information in the population, which you do not do. Biologically, information can refer to different things. Pseudogenes, contain information about evolutionary history but not information that can be selected for. In the context of this discussion, it would be better for us to consider the genetic information underlying traits, with an interest in adaptable traits. It is difficult to determine a way to measure the amount of this information, but one possibility is the size of the proteome. This is the number of unique proteins produced in the population and includes all loci and alleles. Whenever a mutation produces a novel allele, it adds information to the population. In other words, there is a new trait for selection to act upon. Here are two examples of the effects of information in a population.

Jeff knows something about Gina: "Gina is neat." Thus he has information about Gina. Before he leaves town, Jeff replicates this information by telling it to two people, Nick and Randy. Because neither of them pays attention, they don�t replicate the information exactly. Nick thinks "Gina is sweat," and Randy thinks "Gina is near." We can measure the about of information about Gina by the number of non-redundant attributes people ascribe to her. Here, the amount of information about Gina has doubled: from "neat" to "sweat and near." Clearly when we remember that it is the population that�s important to evolution, it is obvious how mutations can add information for selection to act upon.

Take this example retrieved from LocusLink [7], the only difference occurs in the 7th codon (6th amino acid because the first one, 'm,' gets cut off). The letters refer to amino acids [8].
[code]
Human Beta-hemoglobin (HBB)
1 mvhltpeeks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk
61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg
121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh

HBB-S
1 mvhltpveks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk
61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg
121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh

HBB-C
1 mvhltpkeks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk
61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg
121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh
</pre>[/quote]

Each allele does not encode the same information since each one produces a distinctly different product. A single point mutation has enough effect on the information contained in the genome that it can determine whether an individual dies from malaria or not. In the presence of malaria, HBB-S is maintained because of heterozygote advantage. However, HBB-C also offers resistance to malaria, but the most fit genotype is the homozygote.[9] It is expected to become the most common allele in parts of Africa if the environment stays the same. These mutations have clearly added new information to the population. Selection then acts on this new information, changing the make up of the population. Thus, evolution happens.

It is important to realize that evolution occurs even if information is lost. It also occurs when information is gain or without any change in the amount of information at all. Thus no-new-information arguments do not actually address evolutionary theory. By focusing on individuals and not populations, no-new-information claims never even get close to disproving evolution. In fact, the actual claim, when applied to biology, is that the information capacity of an individual's genome cannot increase. However, this claim is false because there are known types of mutations that can increase the length of the genome and thus its capacity to hold information. Ernst Mayr discusses this origin of new genes in his latest book.

�Bacteria and even the oldest eukaryotes (protists) have a rather small genome. . . . This raises the question: By what process is a new gene produced? This occurs, most frequently, by the doubling of an existing gene and its insertion in the chromosome in tandem next to the parental gene. In due time the new gene may adopt a new function and the ancestral gene with its traditional function will then be referred to as the orthologous gene. It is through orthologous genes that the phylogeny of genes is traced. The derived gene, coexisting with the ancestral gene, is called paralogous. Evolutionary diversification is, to a large extent, effected by the production of paralogous genes. The doubling sometimes affects not merely a single gene, but a whole chromosome set or even an entire genome.� [10]

7. <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/LocusLink/" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/LocusLink/</a>
8. <a href="http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/AminoAcid/AA1n2.html" target="_blank">http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/AminoAcid/AA1n2.html</a>
9. Modiano D. et al. (2001) Haemoglobin C protects against clinical plasmodium falciparum malaria. Nature: 414 pp 305-308
10. Mayr E. (2001) What Evolution Is. Basic Books.

tgamble · 10-24-2002, 07:25 AM

Now his resposne to this

""They gained the ability to produce individuals who could resist the drug."

is this:

"But the drug also lost the ability to resist the germ."

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Sigh, remember that poster who asked why we even bother...? I need reminding. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Jack the Bodiless · 10-24-2002, 08:11 AM

Try the <a href="http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm" target="_blank">nylon-eating bug</a> on him.

He might argue that the total number of useful traits in the genome hasn't increased (because the mutation knocked out the ability to digest regular food). However, according to his own definition of information (the total number of traits in the population in which the mutation occurred), there has been an increase in information: a population which could digest one type of food became a population with members that could handle regular food AND members that could digest nylon.

This is the converse of his take on antibiotic-resistance: loss of those individuals in the population who lacked a trait. If this is an information decrease, then the nylon bug must surely be an information increase.

Of course, he'll wriggle and squirm, and attempt to change his definition of "information"...

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/brianvds/skeptic/info.htm" target="_blank">This article</a> might help also.

Non-praying Mantis · 10-24-2002, 08:29 AM

Quote:

tgamble:
He also gave me this story

Quoted by tgamble:
When tested, these bacteria were found to possess resistance to several modern-day anti-biotics, including penicillin. Such traits were obviously present prior to penicillin's discovery, and thus could not be an evolutionary development.

tgamble:
How accurate is this? Obviously this trait isn't found in all populations or penicillin wouldn't work would it?

So? Remember, penicillin is NOT an artificial antibiotic, but is present in certain fungi, and its presence in the enviromnent has probably been around for millions (if not longer) of years.

Bacteria could evolve resistance to natural antibiotics before man ever found out about the antibiotic effects of them, and then the bacteria might be able to use those chemical defenses, which provide that immunity to natural antibiotics, to provide some immunity to artificial ones.

True, antibiotic resistance is not found in every bacteria. Resistance to antibiotics is found on auxillary DNA in the bacterium called plasmids. Plasmids are not necessary for the bacteria to grow, but they can help in certain environments, especially those with large amounts of antibiotic chemicals.

NPM

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Non-praying Mantis ]

tgamble · 10-24-2002, 08:40 AM

Thanks! Can I post that on the forum I'm useing? I'll include a link here. Through to be honest, that might not help. You know us infidels, lying immoral and all that...

Undercurrent · 10-24-2002, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:
"the population has simply lost the ability to produce individuals with a sensitivity to the antibiotic.

In that case, humans descended from a population of an ape-like ancestor that:

Lost the ability to produce individuals with excessive hair on its body.
Lost the ability to produce individuals with non-locking knees and non-upright walking ability.
Lost the ability to produce individuals with small brains.

Isn't creato-logic fun?

m.

Albion · 10-24-2002, 10:58 AM

Quote:

"They gained the ability to produce individuals who could resist the drug."

is this:

"But the drug also lost the ability to resist the germ."

Oh, good grief. So now penicillin is a lifeform?

MortalWombat · 10-24-2002, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undercurrent:


In that case, humans descended from a population of an ape-like ancestor that:

Lost the ability to produce individuals with excessive hair on its body.
Lost the ability to produce individuals with non-locking knees and non-upright walking ability.
Lost the ability to produce individuals with small brains.

Isn't creato-logic fun?

m.

Don't forget:

- Lost the ability to grasp things with their feet.

- Lost the ability to drink and breathe at the same time due to a different positioning of the larynx, thereby losing the ability to not be able to speak and losing the ability to not choke on their food when swallowing.

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10-24-2002, 07:00 AM	#13
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	This is my stock responce to this creationist misconception as revealed in an email to a 15-yro. INFORMATION Individuals don't evolve. Populations do. So in linking information theory to evolution, you must consider the information in the population, which you do not do. Biologically, information can refer to different things. Pseudogenes, contain information about evolutionary history but not information that can be selected for. In the context of this discussion, it would be better for us to consider the genetic information underlying traits, with an interest in adaptable traits. It is difficult to determine a way to measure the amount of this information, but one possibility is the size of the proteome. This is the number of unique proteins produced in the population and includes all loci and alleles. Whenever a mutation produces a novel allele, it adds information to the population. In other words, there is a new trait for selection to act upon. Here are two examples of the effects of information in a population. Jeff knows something about Gina: "Gina is neat." Thus he has information about Gina. Before he leaves town, Jeff replicates this information by telling it to two people, Nick and Randy. Because neither of them pays attention, they don�t replicate the information exactly. Nick thinks "Gina is sweat," and Randy thinks "Gina is near." We can measure the about of information about Gina by the number of non-redundant attributes people ascribe to her. Here, the amount of information about Gina has doubled: from "neat" to "sweat and near." Clearly when we remember that it is the population that�s important to evolution, it is obvious how mutations can add information for selection to act upon. Take this example retrieved from LocusLink [7], the only difference occurs in the 7th codon (6th amino acid because the first one, 'm,' gets cut off). The letters refer to amino acids [8]. [code] Human Beta-hemoglobin (HBB) 1 mvhltpeeks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk 61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg 121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh HBB-S 1 mvhltpveks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk 61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg 121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh HBB-C 1 mvhltpkeks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk 61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg 121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh </pre>[/quote] Each allele does not encode the same information since each one produces a distinctly different product. A single point mutation has enough effect on the information contained in the genome that it can determine whether an individual dies from malaria or not. In the presence of malaria, HBB-S is maintained because of heterozygote advantage. However, HBB-C also offers resistance to malaria, but the most fit genotype is the homozygote.[9] It is expected to become the most common allele in parts of Africa if the environment stays the same. These mutations have clearly added new information to the population. Selection then acts on this new information, changing the make up of the population. Thus, evolution happens. It is important to realize that evolution occurs even if information is lost. It also occurs when information is gain or without any change in the amount of information at all. Thus no-new-information arguments do not actually address evolutionary theory. By focusing on individuals and not populations, no-new-information claims never even get close to disproving evolution. In fact, the actual claim, when applied to biology, is that the information capacity of an individual's genome cannot increase. However, this claim is false because there are known types of mutations that can increase the length of the genome and thus its capacity to hold information. Ernst Mayr discusses this origin of new genes in his latest book. �Bacteria and even the oldest eukaryotes (protists) have a rather small genome. . . . This raises the question: By what process is a new gene produced? This occurs, most frequently, by the doubling of an existing gene and its insertion in the chromosome in tandem next to the parental gene. In due time the new gene may adopt a new function and the ancestral gene with its traditional function will then be referred to as the orthologous gene. It is through orthologous genes that the phylogeny of genes is traced. The derived gene, coexisting with the ancestral gene, is called paralogous. Evolutionary diversification is, to a large extent, effected by the production of paralogous genes. The doubling sometimes affects not merely a single gene, but a whole chromosome set or even an entire genome.� [10] 7. <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/LocusLink/" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/LocusLink/</a> 8. <a href="http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/AminoAcid/AA1n2.html" target="_blank">http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/AminoAcid/AA1n2.html</a> 9. Modiano D. et al. (2001) Haemoglobin C protects against clinical plasmodium falciparum malaria. Nature: 414 pp 305-308 10. Mayr E. (2001) What Evolution Is. Basic Books.

10-24-2002, 07:25 AM	#14
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	Now his resposne to this ""They gained the ability to produce individuals who could resist the drug." is this: "But the drug also lost the ability to resist the germ." <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Sigh, remember that poster who asked why we even bother...? I need reminding. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

10-24-2002, 08:11 AM	#15
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Try the <a href="http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm" target="_blank">nylon-eating bug</a> on him. He might argue that the total number of useful traits in the genome hasn't increased (because the mutation knocked out the ability to digest regular food). However, according to his own definition of information (the total number of traits in the population in which the mutation occurred), there has been an increase in information: a population which could digest one type of food became a population with members that could handle regular food AND members that could digest nylon. This is the converse of his take on antibiotic-resistance: loss of those individuals in the population who lacked a trait. If this is an information decrease, then the nylon bug must surely be an information increase. Of course, he'll wriggle and squirm, and attempt to change his definition of "information"... <a href="http://www.geocities.com/brianvds/skeptic/info.htm" target="_blank">This article</a> might help also.

10-24-2002, 08:40 AM	#17
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	Thanks! Can I post that on the forum I'm useing? I'll include a link here. Through to be honest, that might not help. You know us infidels, lying immoral and all that...

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