Ted Hoffman

Originally posted by HelenM:

I don't understand this - in what sense is it 'payment' to marry someone?
If she demands it in exchange ( ie "If you want sex, you must marry me first").

I think it's a perfectly reasonable choice for a woman not to have sex outside of marriage, for whatever reason.
For good reasons only - you cant say for whatever reason.

Most sex entails the risk of pregnancy and I think that's enough reason for an unmarried woman to say no
We do have contraceptives, withdrawal, menstrual cycles etc - this is no longer a valid reason.

, even she doesn't care about the diseases she might catch...
Protected sex.

it bothers me to see that choice likened to 'prostitution'! Yes, I suppose she could have an abortion but why should she have to put herself at risk of having to have one or bear a child, unless she freely chooses to take on that risk?
She has to choose it freely the way she chose to freely love that someone. Loving someone includes taking care of their needs. Its a sacrifice an adult in love should be ready to make - if she sees sex as such a "deflowering" "robbing" experience.

Of course, being married doesn't guarantee that a woman's husband is committed to her for life.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Most girls are scared that after sex, the man will lose interest or respect for her. I used to tell my GF that if thats how the man views sex, then it would be better to know him before you are married.

But I see nothing wrong in her holding out for at least that much level of commitment that her boyfriend would become her husband first, if she so desires.

Men who make commitments because sex is carotted to them as a bait resent the women later - its a recipe for a bad marriage.
The purpose of marriage cant be reduced to licensing the act of sex.

(If you are married then it would only be reasonable to always refuse to have sex if your partner knew going into the marriage that you were going to)

I dont get your meaning here.

HelenM

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think what's important is that each person be realistic and, if they aren't willing to have sex, they don't do things that frustrate the other person. I think the important thing is that both agree on "how far they will go". If they aren't agreeing then that is bound to lead to conflict and unhappiness and frustration - for one of them, which really means for both. Your partner's feelings will affect you, imo.

So, yes, one has to consider the relationship and one's partner's feelings and make these decisions together for the sake of the relationship. But I don't think it's reasonable for either one to say "I need sex and so you need to have sex with me". I will comment on this more, below...

I understand that a piece of paper won't create a committed partner. However, when a partner won't agree to marriage that might mean he/she is not willing to commit to the relationship. Either that or they have some philosophical objetion to being legally married. I'd see it as a red flag unless the partner can convince that his/her objections are purely philosophical and not rooted in an unwillingness to commit to the relationship.

We may never agree on this. I don't see sex as a 'need'. Some people go through their lives without ever having sex. Maybe not many but I'm sure some do. And they don't 'die' because of lack of sex therefore it's not a 'need'.

I'd say the same about a woman who has sex not because she wants to but because some man told her he 'needs sex' and put pressure on her to have it.

Thanks for your comments and the personal sharing, Intensity

take care
Helen

Ted Hoffman

...And they don't 'die' because of lack of sex therefore it's not a 'need'.

We won't die without clothes therefore clothes are not a need.
Maslow was wrong to say food sex and shelter are human needs.

I hope you see the fallacy of your reasoning. Some people also go through life without ever seeing. That doesn't mean we dont need sight Helen.

Ted Hoffman

I'd say the same about a woman who has sex not because she wants to but because some man told her he 'needs sex' and put pressure on her to have it.

Well, my imagination is a bit scant today - but why would a grown healthy woman not want to have sex with a man she loves?

I think she would need to explain to him why she doesnt want to have sex if they are in a relationship.

If he thinks her reasons are not valid, he will have no reason to wait (unless he is not interested in sex too - and I want for the first two years of our relationship).

If lack of a piece of paper is the reason, well, he will have to decide whether that is a good reason to invalidate his needs - depending on his value system he can put up and shut up, put up and play outside, or pull the plug on the arrangement.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think what's important is that each person be realistic and, if they aren't willing to have sex, they don't do things that frustrate the other person.

I am yet to learn of a grown healthy lady who is not interested in being held and kissed by a man she loves.
And of a man who doesnt yearn for you know what with the woman he is in love with.

<controversial hat on>In fact, in some ways, someone not ultimately interested in having sex has no business being in a romantic relationship.

Such people just need friendship - which is all over the damn place.
</polemical hat off>

I think the important thing is that both agree on "how far they will go"
It doesn't work - unless the hormones are messed up. Or unless the brainwashing is total.

It can only work for a while - unless we are dealing with some aged couple (sorry if I offend old chaps out there).

...Your partner's feelings will affect you, imo.

It will. But if her perspective changes, she wont have negative feelings.

Later.

HelenM

Food is - people will die without food.

Shelter is for people who live in a place where it is too hot or cold outside, to survive without it.

Sex never is. No-one ever died because they didn't have sex.

People don't need to see as long as they are able to obtain what they do need - food and shelter - without seeing.

take care
Helen

HelenM

Lots of reasons. Not wanting to risk pregnancy, not wanting to risk getting a disease transmitted via sex or because morally she doesn't want to have sex with someone she isn't married to (I suppose this generally is tied to religious belief but may also be because culturally it would stigmatize her to have had sex outside of marriage)

Then it sounds like he is in a relationship with the wrong woman, if he wants something she is not wiling to provide, and he is not willing to wait.

Exactly. Whatever he does I hope he's honest about it. Two-timing without telling his GF - when she expects him to be totally hers - is unfair and unwise imo. And I think it would be reprehensible of him to plead, if found out "Ah, but you wouldn't meet my need for sex, so I had to go elsewhere..." If so then I would say he ought to end the relationship with his GF first.

Evidently, though, people do manage to wait until marriage and neither dies before the marriage so, it is possible...

But, I expect you're right that it's a very 'natural' thing to feel that way. But we don't have to act on our feelings. We have a choice.

However, that's why I would say it's important for a person not to 'lead her/his partner on' by the kind of contact that will lead to frustration, if she/he is not willing to have sex.

[quote]<controversial hat on>In fact, in some ways, someone not ultimately interested in having sex has no business being in a romantic relationship.[/quote[

"ultimately" is important, though. Someone waiting for marriage is very likely interested in having sex ultimately. Just not until after the wedding.

Fair enough.

I don't know how it is with old people and sexual desire so I can't comment.

I know people who waited, so I know it can work for over a year, say...

Them changing could resolve the problem in a relational sense, because it could bring the two into agreement.

However, unless the person who changed, has made a complete moral change, he/she will probably feel guilty and may resent his/her partner - secretly - and that would be very bad for the relationship.

That's something to be careful about, imo, with someone who won't have sex and then agrees to, after all. Make sure they aren't secretly resentful and aren't secretly feeling you pushed them into it and aren't secretly feeling guilty.

I'm just saying...this of course, may not be the case...

take care
Helen

Glory

What both Intensity and Helen agree on is the importance of honesty, integrity, and mutual agreement on the parameters of the relationship both before and after the wedding.

It doesn't make much sense for someone who believes sex before marraige is wrong to be dating someone who uses sex as an ice breaker. The best case scenario is that someone comes away frustrated.

Where things tend to fall apart is the point at which one person is pressuring the other to do something they don't want to do or, worse, manipulating them into it. Also, when one person is teasing the other person in order to get them to do something they don't want to do. Both of these things happen way too often for my taste.

One thing that has not been touched upon yet is the tendency of both genders to be less than honest about what they want, what they like, what they are trying to get from the other person, what they dislike, and how they feel about sex in general. In my experience, people find it difficult to be entirely honest about sex, particularly young people.

Glory

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

HelenM

I can believe that. I wouldn't be surprised if young people find it hard to be honest in close relationships, in general. The teenage years are such a self-conscious time, with a lot of peer pressure and fears etc. Or so it seems to me.

Thanks for your comments, Glory

Helen

brighid

I am not sure if sex isn’t entirely a need. Yes, one won’t physically die without sexual intercourse but I think focusing simply on the physical aspect of sex ignores the very emotional aspect that IMO is more often the driving force behind sexual desire. The act of sexual intercourse is not just a physical act devoid of emotion. It can be for some, but within a marriage or even a committed relationship I think that strips sex of the intimacy present in those relationships. I emotionally need to intimacy that exists between myself and my husband and one way that intimacy is expressed through the encompassing dynamics of our sexual relationship: from flirting, to cuddling on the couch, to conversation, to kissing, hugging, fondling and through the many faceted acts of sexual intercourse.

Focusing on the purely physical element of the sex act also ignores the problems seen in individuals that repress their sexuality for any extended period of time – the abuse within the Catholic and Protestant churches by pedophilic priests is just one example. Do some people go their entire lives without any desire for sexual contact with another human being? I suppose those sorts of people exist, but I believe they are a small minority of our population. People have varying sex drives dependent on age, circumstance, disease, physical fitness and responsibilities and those changes cannot be ignored either.

I think it is unhealthy to repress sexuality, sexual desire, etc. This does not mean that one has the right, the circumstance or the ability to act on that desire every time it arises but it is destructive to view sex as bad, dirty, evil or only restricted to the procreative process. Sexual intercourse can have emotional and physical consequences. It can cause heart ache, anger, resentment and it can spread disease but correlation is not causation. Sex can also lead to love, euphoria, joy, and be disease free. What sex will be is entirely dependent on the agents engaging in the act. Sex between two (or even more) consenting adults, engaged in honestly, openly and under agreed upon perameters, done responsible with proper birth control and/or disease preventing measures IS and can be an absolutely satisfying emotional and physical action.

People should be responsible. People should be educated as to all the possibilities and proceed with caution. This does not guarantee something undesirable will not happen, but it drastically reduces the probability of ill consequences. Remedies should be available even to the irresponsible whenever possible.

Brighid

Harumi

You mean fondle myself? Or fondle his?

Eeeeeewwwwwwwww