Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xeren · 10-03-2002, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
One account says Judas hung himself, one account says he bashed himself against rocks.....therfore...?
There was no Judas? How 'bout therefore the gospels represent accounts written by different people and not all copied from the same one.
I am not an inerrantist in the same strict sense as some. I find it odd that most atheists though.

Separate accounts of a true event diverge when it comes to minor details, like "did he kill himself in early or late afternoon?", and "what reason do you think he did it?". Not two COMPLETELY different accounts of HOW he died.

Vanderzyden · 10-03-2002, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
Vanderzyden:

I didn't ask if you'd read and studied it. I asked if you'd read and studied it WITH AN OPEN MIND. Did you honestly ever read the Qu'ran with the intent of being Muslim? After all, isn't that what you're asking of the atheists here in regards to the Bible?

No. I am not asking you to pretend that you are intent on becoming a follower of Christ.

Maintaining an open mind means setting aside presuppositions as much as possible. What are the truth claims? Are they reasonable? Why? What corrobating evidence is there? Does it have the ring of truth? etc. etc.

You don't have to go to the Bible, or the Qu'ran. Examine yourself, and nature. Ask yourself four questions:

1. How does life come from non-life?
2. Why does something exist rather than nothing?
3. How does mind come from non-mind?
4. Why do so many things take on the appearance of specialized purpose?

Vanderzyden

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]

Vanderzyden · 10-03-2002, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:


I gave the Judas example in response to Vandy's inerrancy challenge on the prior page.

You are in error, sir. I did not present an inerrancy challenge.

Perhaps you have a unassailable defintion of inerrancy that you could share with us.

Vanderzyden

RJS · 10-03-2002, 02:06 PM

Quote:

The more you guys talk (Geo, Van, and RJS) the more thoroughly I'm convinced it's all a load of crap. If that's your intention here, you're doing a good job of it.

It is interesting to me as a relatively new Christian (less than 2 years), that I would have said the same thing two years ago (even though I was a theist at the time). But with Christ, the clearest most truthful posts on this entire thread are the "pride" posts by Geo and Van. With Christ, the truth is so easy to see in the bible - every word leaps out with meaning, when historically it was just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. It is like Christ provides the special decoder glasses. With Christ, the blinders are taken off - the inverted world of the "last shall be first and the first shall be last" and "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of Me will find it" all makes sense. I don't consider myself a loser. Sinner and unworthy, yes. Loser, no.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

Mageth · 10-03-2002, 02:06 PM

1. How does life come from non-life?
2. Why does something exist rather than nothing?
3. How does mind come from non-mind?
4. Why do so many things take on the appearance of specialized purpose?

Haven't we done whole threads on those questions with you already?

In brief, I have considered (and am considering) all those questions, and haven't found "goddidit" a necessary (or even satisfactory) answer for any of them.

Kosh · 10-03-2002, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:


That's it in a nutshell. You are 100% right. Pride is the main thing that keeps people out of heaven. Sinful pride.

Wait, I thought it was disbelief in Jesus as your savior that kept you out of Heaven. How can I choose Heaven if you keep changing the criteria? If I believe in Jesus, but have a lot of Pride, does that get me into Hell?

K · 10-03-2002, 02:08 PM

Vanderzyden:

I did more than set aside presuppositions. I assumed that the Bible was true. I believed in it for the majority of my life. However, it was the fact that it ran counter to the observed world that led to my atheism. Also, the questions you've listed aren't answered any better by the Bible than by any other creation myth. In fact, having several gods answers them much better than having just one. Assigning everything we don't understand to a God does not fill in any gaps in our understanding. It also tells us absolutely nothing about the characteristics of God.

Kosh · 10-03-2002, 02:10 PM

Just recieved a notice from the Vorlon high council. Vanderhyzen has been made an honorary <a href="http://planetofthegeeks.com/digital/askkosh/" target="_blank">Vorlon</a> for his sly ability to avoid actually answering any questions.

Kosh · 10-03-2002, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords:
usually known as "Bob"

Do you think that's "Bob from Account Temps"

Mageth · 10-03-2002, 02:13 PM

RJS:

I, and many others here, come from the opposite perspective. I started out as a "believer", but close examination of xian beliefs (in particular, hell, "unworthiness", and the need for "salvation"), drove me away. You might say that I removed the blindfold of Christ. I wonder now how I ever believed the teachings of xianity.

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10-03-2002, 02:06 PM	#125
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	1. How does life come from non-life? 2. Why does something exist rather than nothing? 3. How does mind come from non-mind? 4. Why do so many things take on the appearance of specialized purpose? Haven't we done whole threads on those questions with you already? In brief, I have considered (and am considering) all those questions, and haven't found "goddidit" a necessary (or even satisfactory) answer for any of them.

10-03-2002, 02:08 PM	#127
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Vanderzyden: I did more than set aside presuppositions. I assumed that the Bible was true. I believed in it for the majority of my life. However, it was the fact that it ran counter to the observed world that led to my atheism. Also, the questions you've listed aren't answered any better by the Bible than by any other creation myth. In fact, having several gods answers them much better than having just one. Assigning everything we don't understand to a God does not fill in any gaps in our understanding. It also tells us absolutely nothing about the characteristics of God.

10-03-2002, 02:10 PM	#128
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Just recieved a notice from the Vorlon high council. Vanderhyzen has been made an honorary <a href="http://planetofthegeeks.com/digital/askkosh/" target="_blank">Vorlon</a> for his sly ability to avoid actually answering any questions.

10-03-2002, 02:13 PM	#130
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	RJS: I, and many others here, come from the opposite perspective. I started out as a "believer", but close examination of xian beliefs (in particular, hell, "unworthiness", and the need for "salvation"), drove me away. You might say that I removed the blindfold of Christ. I wonder now how I ever believed the teachings of xianity.

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