Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jojo-sa · 01-30-2002, 03:13 AM

sbaii
Secular Web Visitor
Member # 3435
posted January 29, 2002 08:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to discuss the essense of Islam we could do that . on another thread or whatever aother way you prefer. Then at the same time I would like to see what system you offer. and how you make all this decisions you seem so proud of and what decisions they are exactly.
==================================================

You offer that passage from Deut.as some kind of justification for sharia law. But what civilized person in this day and age really thinks stoning someone for any reason is right or sane? Most modern churches renounce those parts of the Bible that are blatantly archaic and downright savage.

seem u cant follow the topic. that was just to indicate christain also do this.

and the rest of the world too. USA does , treason is punshable by death in most states.

to understand Islam , like i said study it from all angles.

peace

Ender · 01-30-2002, 10:27 AM

1. Why are you ahteist or free thinker?

It is my personal belief that one's state of mind is always a psychological one, and never a logical nor a rational one. From that basis i infer that one's perspective is essentially an aesthetic one, and a subjective one constituted by experience. Specifically a belief in God speaks more about the person's inclinations or desires than it does about the belief in itself. From that point on you can easily categorize the psychological profile of believers and demarcate that from the unbeliever's.

2. What faith were you as a kid? or what was Your religious ubringing and education in as a kid?

It is due to the intellectual evolution and maturity of my perspective that i am an atheist today. My religious indoctrination was much like any other average american kid- the birth into a christian family had everything to do with my initial forays in the catholic church. It all started at my baptism when I pissed at the priest. No joke. Well, in retrospect, that could be interpreted as an omen for things to come!

Soon enough, i began to take an interest in all things biblical, especially the old testament. This lead to an affinity of mythologies, and i became an avid disciple of the local library. The obvious parallel symptoms in the ancient mythologies and modern religious stories were nearly impossible to overlook. And that was the first seed of my atheism. By the time i turned 11, other denominations struck my fancy. By meeting a rabid, seething dyed-in-the-wool Jehovah witness smart ass i grew fascinated with the stark differences between my traditional religion and his- however aesthetic. Does anybody remember a free monthly zine titled "Plain Truth" ? Around that time i began subscribing and found its wild interpretations of biblical prophecies entertaining and exciting, so i dumped my JeHo addiction for outlandish interpretations of bibilcal revelations. By then my family (mother, aunts, grandmother) confronted my "seemingly" acts of insubordination with dogmatic bluster about Catholicism. i recall one evening i stole Karl Marx's Kapital from my father's library- before i had finished the intro my mother walked in and immediately reacted with all the religious fervor by snatching that weighty book away and reinserting the bible. She proceeded to implore me to read the bible before moving on to other books. By that time i had already gone through it a few times and began to suspect my mother's "good intentions." This gave nourishment to the atheistic seed- nothing like cold, hard doubt to cultivate a skeptical attitude! After several years of playing the paleontology enthusiast, my belief in religion had dwindled to mere custom and habits on sundays- and the final blow was at age 17 when i took part in a high school sponsored debate at UCLA on Creation vs Evolution. At that time i tossed in my hat with the Creationists. I did most of the research and working out the paper. By compiling all the possible arguments & counter args., i saw both sides for the first time in a new light. Even though my team blew away the evolutionists (i threw in heavy words to stun the judges

) i was no longer a ignorant believer- the arguments for creation (and by extension, God) appeared so flimsy and whimsically inadequate to the hard science of Evolution. A few years later i came across David Hume's and Friederich Nietzsche's books- and the rest is history.

These books were the final nail in the coffin of supersition bullshit. I'm now a militant Atheist.

Like someone said elsewhere- "Gawd bless David Hume."

~WiGGIN~

Triple Six · 01-30-2002, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
sbaii
Secular Web Visitor
Member # 3435
posted January 29, 2002 08:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to discuss the essense of Islam we could do that . on another thread or whatever aother way you prefer. Then at the same time I would like to see what system you offer. and how you make all this decisions you seem so proud of and what decisions they are exactly.
==================================================

You offer that passage from Deut.as some kind of justification for sharia law. But what civilized person in this day and age really thinks stoning someone for any reason is right or sane? Most modern churches renounce those parts of the Bible that are blatantly archaic and downright savage.

seem u cant follow the topic. that was just to indicate christain also do this.

and the rest of the world too. USA does , treason is punshable by death in most states.

to understand Islam , like i said study it from all angles.

peace

I'm not into defending any religions but even the nuttiest christian and jewish cults do not go about dishing out death sentences on ex-believers and carrying them out if possible. Sure they won't like those who bail out but only islam takes the extra steps.

The analogy to treason is wrong on several counts. Treason is an offence against a country or its government, you know real entities and not some mythic figure. Further it is an act of betrayal, ie doing something to actively harm the state. Since when has not believing someting been treason? If they executed everybody in the US who has merely not believed everything the government has said there wouldn't be many people left. Strangely the population there and in other western style democracies isn't getting wiped out at an alarming rate. Once again it is islam leading the way in oppression of any dissenting thoughts or voices from within wherever possible.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Proud atheist ]

jojo-sa · 01-31-2002, 02:13 AM

Quote:

The analogy to treason is wrong on several counts. Treason is an offence against a country or its government, you know real entities and not some mythic figure. Further it is an act of betrayal, ie doing something to actively harm the state. Since when has not believing someting been treason? If they executed everybody in the US who has merely not believed everything the government has said there wouldn't be many people left. Strangely the population there and in other western style democracies isn't getting wiped out at an alarming rate. Once again it is islam leading the way in oppression of any dissenting thoughts or voices from within wherever possible.

Yet again you dont understand Islam and the system. like i sadi i will discuss this on another thread if you like.

Be that as it is Treason in Islamic state ( the way it should be) is the same thing as someone who left Islam who once understood it and believed it.

This can be discussed in detail on another thread if you like.Or you could just read up on your own on this issue.

Read Read Read

that is the answer.....

Orpheous99 · 01-31-2002, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

You offer that passage from Deut.as some kind of justification for sharia law. But what civilized person in this day and age really thinks stoning someone for any reason is right or sane?

Irrelevant. If your religious texts are suppose to be the absolutely truth inspired by your god than ALL of the laws proscribed in it must also be absolute as well. You can't pick and choose what you want to practice and still call yourself a believer. To believe is to accept ALL of it without any real questions.

Most modern churches renounce those parts of the Bible that are blatantly archaic and downright savage.

This makes them Cut&Paste Christians and thus hypocrits.

to understand Islam , like i said study it from all angles.

It is the same "angle" as all dominance-based religions, power and control.

peace

The Islamic idea of peace is slavery to their god.

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]

Orpheous99 · 01-31-2002, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:


Yet again you dont understand Islam and the system. like i sadi i will discuss this on another thread if you like.

Be that as it is Treason in Islamic state ( the way it should be) is the same thing as someone who left Islam who once understood it and believed it.

This can be discussed in detail on another thread if you like.Or you could just read up on your own on this issue.

Read Read Read

that is the answer.....

Oh, please. What is there to actually understand which is really any different than any other dominace-based religion? The preaching of love and tolerance is just the hook to get the gullible in. This has been proven time and again throughout history. They're all guilty of preaching one thing and practicing another.

jojo-sa · 01-31-2002, 04:04 AM

orphy

no offence but you actually say nothing and back up even less.

Please Quote some things and we can discuss.

and as i request lets discuss that on another thread.

this one is for me to find out about the atheist phenomenom

peace.

Orpheous99 · 01-31-2002, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

Orpheous99

no offence but you actually say nothing and back up even less.

Please Quote some things and we can discuss.

and as i request lets discuss that on another thread.

That's the problem with theists, you all think that your belief system is all that complex and difficult to understand for nonbelievers, it really isn't all that difficult. It is because we're non-believers that we understand it perfectly that is why we don't believe, or know why there can be no belief in such things either way.

this one is for me to find out about the atheist phenomenom

I suppose since you think that your belief is complex that all beliefs must be so as well. The only thing which all atheists have in common is that they don't believe in a god, simple.

Why you see this more in the West is that, unlike in most Muslim societies, we are permitted the opportunity to think for ourselves and when this occures more and more of those who do think see less and less of a good reason to actually believe in mythical beings like gods and other such nonsense. In most Muslim societies independant thinking is greatly discouraged and to make sure of this just about everything is mapped out for you in your daily lives. One would have more real freedom in a maximum security prison.

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]

Triple Six · 01-31-2002, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:


Yet again you dont understand Islam and the system. like i sadi i will discuss this on another thread if you like.

Be that as it is Treason in Islamic state ( the way it should be) is the same thing as someone who left Islam who once understood it and believed it.

This can be discussed in detail on another thread if you like.Or you could just read up on your own on this issue.

Read Read Read

that is the answer.....

So it is OK to consider someone who leaves Islam as "treasonable" and open to punishment? Thanks for finally admitting it. That was my original point about islam being unique in still actively punishing those who leave it where as other religions at least have become civilized enough to avoid carrying out such sanctions even though it is written in their texts.

As for reading, no matter how many times I read something that is wrong, it remains just as wrong as the first time. That applies especially to hate filled fairly tales concocted by ancient scribes with limited knowledge of the world.

jojo-sa · 01-31-2002, 10:56 PM

proud atheist and orphy

I see the both of you fail to submit any evidence.

Once again barking of like some brainless dog.

Pleas lets discuss the issue. Provide some evidence.

Islam is not complicated it just requires a bit of reading which it seems you fail to do.

And for the last time please open a thread send me a message and we can discuss Islam.

This thread is for my information on the reason why atheists are atheist. its not too discuss Islam.

peace

01-31-2002, 03:42 AM	#85
Orpheous99 Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 1,258	Originally posted by jojo-sa: You offer that passage from Deut.as some kind of justification for sharia law. But what civilized person in this day and age really thinks stoning someone for any reason is right or sane? Irrelevant. If your religious texts are suppose to be the absolutely truth inspired by your god than ALL of the laws proscribed in it must also be absolute as well. You can't pick and choose what you want to practice and still call yourself a believer. To believe is to accept ALL of it without any real questions. Most modern churches renounce those parts of the Bible that are blatantly archaic and downright savage. This makes them Cut&Paste Christians and thus hypocrits. to understand Islam , like i said study it from all angles. It is the same "angle" as all dominance-based religions, power and control. peace The Islamic idea of peace is slavery to their god. [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

01-31-2002, 10:41 AM	#88
Orpheous99 Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 1,258	Originally posted by jojo-sa: Orpheous99 no offence but you actually say nothing and back up even less. Please Quote some things and we can discuss. and as i request lets discuss that on another thread. That's the problem with theists, you all think that your belief system is all that complex and difficult to understand for nonbelievers, it really isn't all that difficult. It is because we're non-believers that we understand it perfectly that is why we don't believe, or know why there can be no belief in such things either way. this one is for me to find out about the atheist phenomenom I suppose since you think that your belief is complex that all beliefs must be so as well. The only thing which all atheists have in common is that they don't believe in a god, simple. Why you see this more in the West is that, unlike in most Muslim societies, we are permitted the opportunity to think for ourselves and when this occures more and more of those who do think see less and less of a good reason to actually believe in mythical beings like gods and other such nonsense. In most Muslim societies independant thinking is greatly discouraged and to make sure of this just about everything is mapped out for you in your daily lives. One would have more real freedom in a maximum security prison. [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

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01-30-2002, 03:13 AM	#81
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	sbaii Secular Web Visitor Member # 3435 posted January 29, 2002 08:53 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you want to discuss the essense of Islam we could do that . on another thread or whatever aother way you prefer. Then at the same time I would like to see what system you offer. and how you make all this decisions you seem so proud of and what decisions they are exactly. ================================================== You offer that passage from Deut.as some kind of justification for sharia law. But what civilized person in this day and age really thinks stoning someone for any reason is right or sane? Most modern churches renounce those parts of the Bible that are blatantly archaic and downright savage. seem u cant follow the topic. that was just to indicate christain also do this. and the rest of the world too. USA does , treason is punshable by death in most states. to understand Islam , like i said study it from all angles. peace

01-30-2002, 10:27 AM	#82
Ender Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Lusitania Colony Posts: 658	1. Why are you ahteist or free thinker? It is my personal belief that one's state of mind is always a psychological one, and never a logical nor a rational one. From that basis i infer that one's perspective is essentially an aesthetic one, and a subjective one constituted by experience. Specifically a belief in God speaks more about the person's inclinations or desires than it does about the belief in itself. From that point on you can easily categorize the psychological profile of believers and demarcate that from the unbeliever's. 2. What faith were you as a kid? or what was Your religious ubringing and education in as a kid? It is due to the intellectual evolution and maturity of my perspective that i am an atheist today. My religious indoctrination was much like any other average american kid- the birth into a christian family had everything to do with my initial forays in the catholic church. It all started at my baptism when I pissed at the priest. No joke. Well, in retrospect, that could be interpreted as an omen for things to come! Soon enough, i began to take an interest in all things biblical, especially the old testament. This lead to an affinity of mythologies, and i became an avid disciple of the local library. The obvious parallel symptoms in the ancient mythologies and modern religious stories were nearly impossible to overlook. And that was the first seed of my atheism. By the time i turned 11, other denominations struck my fancy. By meeting a rabid, seething dyed-in-the-wool Jehovah witness smart ass i grew fascinated with the stark differences between my traditional religion and his- however aesthetic. Does anybody remember a free monthly zine titled "Plain Truth" ? Around that time i began subscribing and found its wild interpretations of biblical prophecies entertaining and exciting, so i dumped my JeHo addiction for outlandish interpretations of bibilcal revelations. By then my family (mother, aunts, grandmother) confronted my "seemingly" acts of insubordination with dogmatic bluster about Catholicism. i recall one evening i stole Karl Marx's Kapital from my father's library- before i had finished the intro my mother walked in and immediately reacted with all the religious fervor by snatching that weighty book away and reinserting the bible. She proceeded to implore me to read the bible before moving on to other books. By that time i had already gone through it a few times and began to suspect my mother's "good intentions." This gave nourishment to the atheistic seed- nothing like cold, hard doubt to cultivate a skeptical attitude! After several years of playing the paleontology enthusiast, my belief in religion had dwindled to mere custom and habits on sundays- and the final blow was at age 17 when i took part in a high school sponsored debate at UCLA on Creation vs Evolution. At that time i tossed in my hat with the Creationists. I did most of the research and working out the paper. By compiling all the possible arguments & counter args., i saw both sides for the first time in a new light. Even though my team blew away the evolutionists (i threw in heavy words to stun the judges ) i was no longer a ignorant believer- the arguments for creation (and by extension, God) appeared so flimsy and whimsically inadequate to the hard science of Evolution. A few years later i came across David Hume's and Friederich Nietzsche's books- and the rest is history. These books were the final nail in the coffin of supersition bullshit. I'm now a militant Atheist. Like someone said elsewhere- "Gawd bless David Hume." ~WiGGIN~

01-31-2002, 04:04 AM	#87
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	orphy no offence but you actually say nothing and back up even less. Please Quote some things and we can discuss. and as i request lets discuss that on another thread. this one is for me to find out about the atheist phenomenom peace.

01-31-2002, 10:56 PM	#90
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	proud atheist and orphy I see the both of you fail to submit any evidence. Once again barking of like some brainless dog. Pleas lets discuss the issue. Provide some evidence. Islam is not complicated it just requires a bit of reading which it seems you fail to do. And for the last time please open a thread send me a message and we can discuss Islam. This thread is for my information on the reason why atheists are atheist. its not too discuss Islam. peace

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