Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 02-25-2003, 09:38 PM

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Here's what he could do. All the things he would have been doing if he hadn't gone back to heaven after the resurrection. The Prince of Peace would stop the coming war with Iraq. He would stop terrorism and the bloodshed that has gripped this world for two thousand years since he left. He would heal those with AIDS and cancer and every disease. He could raise my Dad from the dead. I've really missed him the last twenty five years. You want us to believe your God came to Earth as a man. I grant you that. You want us to believe he died and rose from the dead. OK, I give you that. Then what did he do? He f::king left is what he did! Like there was nothing for him to do? Like his work here was over? I dont' think so Sparky. Millions have died horrible, painful deaths the last 2000 years. I know, I've seen it. Wars, famine, disease, murder, and you ask what he could do? I tell you what he could do that would get me back. He could live up to the talk. That's all he has to. Be what you say he is. Protect the children, Jesus. Stop the wars, Jesus. Heal the sick, Jesus. Stop the death and suffering, Jesus. Save the planet, Jesus. You can take all your evidence and apologetics and stuff it. Your problem is that your god is a runaway. gone. left. not here. And we need him now! You want me to believe? Bring him to the homeless shelters. Bring him to the childrens hospitals. Bring him to the prisons.

1. In all of L.A I have not heard of a single mission which was not founded and run by Christians. We still have Lutheran, Catholic and Seventh Day Adventist Hospitals by the hundreds in the U.S. But of course, as you say our numbers are dwindling, so we should soon see lots of provately built atheist and Muslim hospitals, right? I hope so after all this holier-than-the-Christians preaching we've heard on II. At least the Christians backed theirs up.

2. I never said he couldn't do all that. And He will do all that, as soon as he decides to put a permanent end to free will.

Are you willing?

Rad

Radorth · 02-25-2003, 09:42 PM

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How do we tell which impulses people have are motivated by supposedly God-given and universal "conscience", and which impulses are sinful and depraved?

Paul lists them all. Tell, me. Which of them are not harmful to oneself or another, or obsessive in nature?

(Answer: none)

Rad

winstonjen · 02-25-2003, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Paul lists them all. Tell, me. Which of them are not harmful to oneself or another, or obsessive in nature?

(Answer: none)

Rad

How about those consensual (aka victimless) crimes such as consensual prostitution, homosexuality, etc? How are they harmful unless STDs are transmitted (which were created by your 'loving' god nonetheless). Strangely, genocide is advocated by your god, and surely that hurts innocent people in the process.

Cipher Girl · 02-26-2003, 12:18 AM

The vengefull, hatefull god of the OT seems to be made up by people with the morals of a 5 year old. "Better do as Daddy says or else you'll be in big trouble." I find it sad that people still follow this type of morality. They all want to be told what is right or wrong without having to decide for themselves.

So Radorf, do you believe that your god is all knowing, all powerfull, and all loving? If so, then why does evil exists in the world?

If such a god exists:
1) Since evil exists in the world, god cannot be all loving if he has the power to stop it, and the knowledge it is going to happen. So I guess we can leave out the all-loving part. I guess this agrees with the OT (definitely not all-lovin going on there).

2) Or perhaps he is not all-powerfull, he knows that evil will happen and is concerned when it does, but is powerless to do anything about it. Why then would anybody have any concern about such a powerless deity? Such a deity has the same effect as one which does not exist.

3) Or perhaps he is not all-knowing? All powerfull and all-loving but totally incompetent as a deity, a total idiot. Can't figure out when bad things are gonna happen.

It seems that you have selected option 1 above. Why then do you insist that such a monster cares for us and needs us to lower ourselves into grovelling before him?

[edited cause my grammer sucks]

Jack the Bodiless · 02-26-2003, 05:22 AM

A little off-topic, perhaps, but...

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1. In all of L.A I have not heard of a single mission which was not founded and run by Christians.

Well, duh, they wouldn't be called missions if... nah, forget it. If you can't see the fallacy there...

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We still have Lutheran, Catholic and Seventh Day Adventist Hospitals by the hundreds in the U.S. But of course, as you say our numbers are dwindling, so we should soon see lots of provately built atheist and Muslim hospitals, right?

I have been tended to in several atheist hospitals. I have never seen a Christian hospital.

...Assuming that an "atheist hospital" is one paid for by atheists (atheists don't believe in excluding Christians from contributing, so there won't be any entirely "atheist" hospitals), whereas a Christian hospital is one funded entirely by Christians.

Where I come from, all hospitals are "atheist".

You think they don't have any hospitals at all in Muslim countries?

Radorth · 02-26-2003, 07:40 AM

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Where I come from, all hospitals are "atheist".

I said "private." Try to keep up enough to make an argument.

I bet those were the best equipped in the world too, eh?

Rad

Radorth · 02-26-2003, 07:48 AM

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So Radorf, do you believe that your god is all knowing, all powerfull, and all loving? If so, then why does evil exists in the world?

Have you read even one of my posts without your blinders on? I just answered all of these questions, and none of your options fit.

Is spelling my name "Radorf" supposed to invite dialogue, or entertain the choir here?

Rad

Radorth · 02-26-2003, 07:53 AM

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Strangely, genocide is advocated by your god, and surely that hurts innocent people in the process.

Really? My God is Jesus. If you want to declare him a different God than Yahwah, go ahead. You have no evidence Jesus approved physical genocide and his apostles did not engage in it, unlike Muhammed and Associates.

Atheists typically call prostitution "victimless" (yawn) but like homosexuality, it is obsessive except in rare cases. Jack Nicholson spends lots of time with prostitutes apparently. Imagine- a person with his talent and choices stuck trying to find happiness with prostitutes but that is a rather typical end for the materialist.

Rad

Salmon of Doubt · 02-26-2003, 08:22 AM

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Originally posted by Radorth

2. I never said he couldn't do all that. And He will do all that, as soon as he decides to put a permanent end to free will.
[/B]

Maybe I missed something here, or I'm being stupid. How does God revealing himself destroy free will?

I have a table in front of me, I can see it, touch it, and when I put stuff on it they stay on the table instead of falling to the floor. I consider this proof that the table exists, and I believe the table is really there. Does this take away my free will to believe in the table?

How about if I extend the analogy to believing that something exists that I have never seen? My friend is a physicist, and studies astronomy. She has seen the horsehead nebula through a telescope. I haven't seen it, but there is enough evidence from reliable sources to convince me she's not lying. If I ask her to find a picture of it she can provide it to me. Does this destroy my free will to believe in the horsehead nebula?

If someone commands me to worship them, I can believe they exist while at the same time choosing not to worship them. So why does God proving his existence eliminate free will? Apologies if this has been argued before, but I was curious about this issue.

Oh yeah, and I can't say I would call homosexual relationships 'invariably obsessive!'. Where's the evidence for that?

BadBadBad · 02-26-2003, 08:51 AM

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Originally posted by Radorth
1. It's remotely possible he would test me in that way, asking me to kill my child, but only if I had the relationship which he had with Abraham, who was a personal friend, and to whom he audibly spoke. Nevertheless, he never asks Christians to do more than they can bear, or which is truly offensive to their conscience (Romans 14), and he certainly wouldn't require a burnt offering. Those days are long gone.

2. Christians are under a New Covenant, not of laws and rules and works, but of faith. Thus the sacrifices asked for in the OT are no longer needful.

Rad

Remotely possible? - ie it will never happen since God doesn't exist? Only if he had a relationship with you? You don't consider God your personal friend? You don't have a personal relationship with God? All our hypotheticals are defined by God coming down and audibly speaking to you. What makes your "relationship" with God so different than Abraham or Moses? Well, God doesn't come down for little chats that often I guess is one thing. Guess it kind of makes it a little difficult to be friends huh?

I guess if we hypothesize that he comes down to ask you to commit genocide for him, we hypothesize as well that he thinks your kind of one righteous and likable dude just like Abraham and Moses. Well OK, maybe not a very realistic hypothetical, I'll agree.

What about this God never asking you more than your conscience can bear? You seem to be limiting God and bringing him down to your level. Christians have always told me I shouldn't do that. I'm just having trouble with this more than your conscience can bear thing. I see you sited Romans 14, where Paul is talking about eating meat and judging your brother. It doesn't say anything about God and your conscience. I'm no Bible expert, but I'm trying to learn. Where does the Bible say that God would never ask you more than your conscience can bear?

Even if God would never ask you more than your conscience or human morality can bear, how is your conscience and morality so different than that of Moses, Abraham, or God? I thought human morality is defined by God's morality. I thought God's morality was supreme morality.

God takes time out of his busy day. He allows you to look upon the face of Almighty God. He, as the omniscient God, tells you point blank that Muslims are truly evil. He must know something, right? Surely you would believe God, wouldn't you? Is it morally wrong to murder truly evil people? God assures you with his infinite wisdom that Muslims are evil. He assures you that there's not an innocent child among them. He assures you that murder is the only way. It is his way. It is his solution. Why would that, all of the sudden, be a problem for your conscience? The genocidal attrocities in the OT don't bother your conscience do they?

That's the hypothetical. You don't believe God will ever come down for a face to face chat. Neither do I. You don't believe it's realistic that he would come down and ask you to commit genocide. Neither do I. If he did, you and Amie say you would say no to God. So would I.

Perhaps we aren't so different.

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02-26-2003, 12:18 AM	#64
Cipher Girl Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 657	The vengefull, hatefull god of the OT seems to be made up by people with the morals of a 5 year old. "Better do as Daddy says or else you'll be in big trouble." I find it sad that people still follow this type of morality. They all want to be told what is right or wrong without having to decide for themselves. So Radorf, do you believe that your god is all knowing, all powerfull, and all loving? If so, then why does evil exists in the world? If such a god exists: 1) Since evil exists in the world, god cannot be all loving if he has the power to stop it, and the knowledge it is going to happen. So I guess we can leave out the all-loving part. I guess this agrees with the OT (definitely not all-lovin going on there). 2) Or perhaps he is not all-powerfull, he knows that evil will happen and is concerned when it does, but is powerless to do anything about it. Why then would anybody have any concern about such a powerless deity? Such a deity has the same effect as one which does not exist. 3) Or perhaps he is not all-knowing? All powerfull and all-loving but totally incompetent as a deity, a total idiot. Can't figure out when bad things are gonna happen. It seems that you have selected option 1 above. Why then do you insist that such a monster cares for us and needs us to lower ourselves into grovelling before him? [edited cause my grammer sucks]

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