MzNeko

Er, looks like I kind of lost track of the question, I guess... A random person? No, I probably couldn't bring myself to do it. But when it comes to *specific* people, no problem.

The Other Michael

Hi SouthernHybrid,

I've no problems with your other points, but this one I've seen used by the anti-abortion crowd, and I think it is faulty.

The person selected randomly to die could just as well be on the brink of proving to be another Hitler or Stalin as another Einstein or Tesla.

cheers,
Michael

99Percent

Tronvillain's question stems from not knowing the fundamental meaning of money. Money represents human produced values, objective value. Money earned represents the accumulation of your own productive capacity. The unprovoked murder of a human being which could otherwise produce himself cannot possibly result in a human produced value, ie money.

So in effect to kill someone for money is a totally irrational action. And therefore immoral, objectively immoral, no matter how much subjectivist scream otherwise.

christ-on-a-stick

Interesting question... something I've thought about before.

For the most part my gut reaction is that I couldn't do it for any amount of money, in the case of it being a RANDOM person (lots of specific people would be no problem for varying amounts of $/assurance of not getting caught).

HOWEVER, the thought occurred to me that I would venture to guess that all of us here are, in comparison to many many many people in the world, not financially desperate, in the sense of not knowing where our next meal is coming from, or having a roof over our head or adequate clothing, etc. - heck we all have computers apparently. Anyway, my point is that it might be a lot more tempting for a totally destitute person, if given the opportunity, even if they normally wouldn't think of/want to hurt another human being, if their base needs were not being met it would be a heck of a lot harder for them to turn down being able to feed themselves or their family and easier for them to justify in their own minds. I guess what I am saying is that it is easier to eschew doing something immoral "just for money" when you HAVE enough money, at least enough to survive.

Jamie_L

Given my current situation, no, I wouldn't do it. I'm wired and conditioned with a morality and empathy that just wouldn't let me do it under these circumstances.

Would I give my life for strangers. No. I would risk my life for strangers, but in point of fact, I am terrified of dying. While I might feel guilty the rest of my life, I doubt I'd be able to send myself to non-existence for people I don't know. In point of fact, I'm not certain if I could sacrifice my life for the people most dear to me.

Now, considering Christ-on-a-stick's point: are there situations in which I might take the money and cave someone's skull in? Well, if I needed that money to save the life of someone I cared deeply about (especially my wife or kids), then maybe I would. Especially if my options were limited.

Jamie

southernhybrid

QUOTE]I've no problems with your other points, but this one I've seen used by the anti-abortion crowd, and I think it is faulty.

The person selected randomly to die could just as well be on the brink of proving to be another Hitler or Stalin as another Einstein or Tesla.
[/QUOTE]

We're not talking about a fetus here. From my point of view there's a big difference. It's true that the person could be potentially a negative but we don't have that information either. Not knowing what kind of person we are destroying, doesn't make the proposition any more moral, does it? Knowing that I *might* be killing someone who has positive worth to society would make the act immoral for me.

I only used that example as tron originally stated that he found it strange that anyone would object to killing someone randomly for money when they could use the money for some good humanitarian purpose. I was making the point that it would be impossible to know if the value of the money would be greater as an aide to mankind than the value of the person. I won't labor the point any further.

RogerLeeCooke

Well, you put me in the position of being "holier-than-thou," which I loathe. But honestly, there is no amount of money that I could enjoy under such circumstances. I could, I'm sure, kill people for other reasons, but not just for money.

RogerLeeCooke

That was in the back of my mind, also. As a person who is definitely more than 2/3 of the way through his life, I know how limited pleasures can be and how limited the satisfactions are that money can bring. (Not that I've ever had much of it!) I think WH Auden said this best, in one of my favorite poems, "The Shield of Achilles." After Hector killed Achilles' "friend" (gunsel?) Patroclus and seized Achilles' armor, Achilles' mother Thetis asked the god Hephaistos (Vulcan) to make Achilles new armor. The description of it occupies a whole book or more (I think Books XVIII or XIX of the Iliad, but I don't remember, now). Here's the way Auden described it, in part:

"She [Thetis] looked over his shoulder

For vines and olive trees,

Marble well-governed cities

And ships upon untamed seas,

But there on the shining metal

His hands had put instead

An artificial wilderness

And a sky like lead."

[Read the middle part yourself; it's well worth it]

"A ragged urchin, aimless and alone,

Loitered about that vacancy; a bird

Flew up to safety from his well-aimed stone;

That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,

Were axioms to him, who'd never heard

Of any world where promises were kept,

Or one could weep because another wept.

The thin-lipped armorer,

Hephaestos, hobbled away,

Thetis of the shining breasts

Cried out in dismay

At what the god had wrought

To please her son, the strong

Iron-hearted man-slaying Achilles

Who would not live long."

Veil of Fire

So far, I'm the cheapest contract killer in town! I should make business cards.

I'd absolutely do it, minus the probability of getting caught (no such thing as the perfect murder after all.. well, that doesn't rely on dumb blind luck and a chance trip to Europe). 50 grand is a lot of money. I can pay off my college and still have enough to put away for a rainy day (or a down payment on a nice-ish house). The odds of me taking the deal only go up from $50k.

I'll do damn near anything for a price (even sleep with a male, but that'd be expensive). Of course, that's assuming I don't get caught doing it. In normal situations, I'd be scared to death of getting caught.

One of the last sane

The conceptus is an embryo until the completion of major organogenesis, i.e. the tissues become differentiated into organs although histologically their appearance will change a lot during the fetal perios.

Embryonic period is to 57 days postconception in the human. The rest of gestation is the fetal period, within which histogenesis and functional maturation occur.