Freethought & Rationalism Archive

FarSeeker · 12-09-2001, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Retard:
No, but a word must be used with oppression to be analogous to "kike" and "nigger." "Religionist" might be a term of abuse (though I know that religious people use it to describe themselves, and not with irony either). But so what? "Capitalist" was also a term of abuse (coined by Marx). It's not anything like "kike" or "nigger."

All the Secular Humanist junk is beside the point, as I don't subscribe to that doctrine (nor do any of the many atheists I know personally). Moreover, I don't see anything in the quotes you gave that indicates a desire to end spiritual practices. It looks to me like they're condemning certain kinds of religious practice. The stuff about public schools and capitalism? Completely desultory.

I have heard african-Americans refer to themselves with that term (and others epithets). Does that make the use by others OK? Capitalist is a techical term, not applicable here. Besides, I am a capitalism (just not the laissez faire type).

You may not subscribe to SecHumanism, but if they have their way, your children will. Look at all their recent writings, they emphasize the indoctrination of SecHumanism in Public Schools, "because its beliefs are too important to not be encouraged." (paraphrase)

"Don't see anything..." Oh come on! What does:

Quote:

“Religious humanism maintains that all
associations and institutions exist for the
fulfillment of human life. In view of this,
humanists insist that religious
institutions, their ritualistic forms,
ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities
must be reconstituted as rapidly as
possible, in order to function effectively in the
modern world.”

(emphasis added)
mean? Other Manifesto points belabor that holding theistic beliefs is unacceptable in this modern age. This is a clear call for state control of all religions, just as in Marxist contries! We have seen just what Atheists mean by "insist"!

Quote:

This is all complete drivel, so far as I can tell. Let me restate: you seemed surprised by the fact that atheists on these message boards fulminated against Christians way more than they did against Marxists. I pointed out that this shouldn't be surprising, since Christians argue for the existence of God a lot more than do Marxists. That's what you've been saying? OK, then we agree! ???

Where have Marxists argued FOR the existence of God?

Quote:

Which arrived first on this website? Probably criticism of Christians. Why do you ask?

Wellll, This is a responce to both you and another Atheist: The reason you don't have any Marxists arguing their beliefs on this board is because you don't argue against Marxism as you have Christianity (a point you apparently missed). If you would argue against Marxism and SecHumanism like you do Christianity, "they will come." They will likely argue their points and belittle you for not sharing them.
<Addendum>
However, I'm not holding my breath about many Atheists on this site criticizing Marxism because it is the reasoned conclusion of a fellow Atheist, and as an Atheist admitted to on this site, Atheists don't don't like to critisize their own.

And note this:
I have been trying to get Atheists to criticise Marxism for about three years, YOU are the ONLY one who has. A silence that speaks volumes. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Quote:

And yeah I call myself an atheist and not an a-Marxist. That's probably because the culture I live in holds theism at a very high rate (70-95%? Something like that) and Marxism at a much lower rate (0.05%?) You don't call yourself an a-Marxist either, do you? Neither one of us call ourselves a-Velikovskyans or a-Randians, do we? Must every failure of "a-" terminology require explanation? I don't understand this for a second.

I describe myself as a Christian, a positive statement of what I am. You, however, describe youself as what you aren't! Please elucidate!

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

Metacrock · 12-09-2001, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by komazour:
I always wondered why did the concept of communism did not appear for such a long time. But then I found it right in the Bible Acts 4:31 - 4:37. It is a great irony that Communist states are atheist and here in Democracy many of us are theists.

On a side note I realized why the Church was against the world being round because the Bible says it has four corners. Revelations 7:1.

Another thing I realized arguing with theists, is like trying to convince someone smoking is wrong. 30 years after when they are six feet under they realize you were right but before that they are hooked.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: komazour ]

The chruch wasn't agaisnt the idea of the world being round. Where did you get that idea? The RCC was into defending Arostotle so they rejected certain early observations about planetary motion and moutins on the moon, but they never said the earth was flat.

FarSeeker · 01-04-2002, 09:33 PM

Sorry to go back to this, but...

Originally posted by Emperor of the Universec:

Quote:

Not that this whole dumb 'guilt by association' argument is even intellectually valid, but...

Which was followed by:

Quote:

Actually, the less Christinsanity we have had, the more free we have become. Perhaps you would like to live about 80 or so years ago - you know, when people worked 16 hours a day, 6 days a week for a nickel an hour; when poverty was of third-world caliber; when the Christian KKK ruled the South with an iron fist; when blacks and women were prevented from voting; when child abuse was pretty much legal; and when all that Prohibition nonsense was in place? If you did, you would be living in a world filled with theists and Christians, some of whom were the most vocal supporters of all that shit.

Which is a guilt by association argument! Once again an Atheist shows how two-faced they can be.
While condemning me for something and he turns around and blithely does it himself.

Quote:

And [the Russian Atheists] did nothing against most of the non-atheist public merely for not being atheists.

Your ignorance is showing. Or perhaps you simply went to schools where the history of Atheism was suppressed because it was too embarrassing to the Atheists who taught you.

Quote:

Huh? The Czar ordering his troops to blast away at so many innocent protesters was not "mass murder"?

Christianity teaches murder is wrong because God said so. Those who committed those acts were acting contrary to the Will of God. Atheism sets no such limitation. It simply says do whatever you will, so those acting under Lenin, Stalin, etc. were acting in complete concordance with Atheism.

Quote:

Secret Police are in every strong nation, especially one with lots of problems. You are merely speaking of Communist secret Police. The Christian church-supported Czars had their own secret police.

Which would you prefer, the CIA and FBI, or the KGB? For all the faults of the US's agencies, they do not compare with the actions of the KGB.

Quote:

Well, Hitler and his largely theistic army and supporters.

Well, how long did it take for that saw to pop up? What can I say? Hitler fooled a lot of people! But neither Hitler, nor those closest to him were Christians. A lot of people in America have been fooled by Atheists. Just look at those dedicated to NARAL who hold the position that, "killing babies born accidentally as a result of botched abortions has to be legal because [they] want it to be." (U.S. News & World Report, 9/25/00, p.16)

quoting me:
>Christianity as the cause for the fall of
>Rome is an idea held only by the historian's
>equivalent of flat earthers.

Quote:

As is the idea that Communism would not and could not exist if atheism didn't.

The first point is that an Atheist attempted to use this "Christianity is the cause" argument and no Atheist corrected him, despite your admission of knowing he was wrong! What assurance can you give me that anyone of you would step up and defend Christians' human & constitutional rights when other Atheists start voiding them? You won't even hold your fellow Atheists to a simple standard of truth here.

The second point is that historically several Christian societies have practiced socialism or communism, but none have become the mass murderers that the Marxists did. The difference being Atheism vs. Christianity.

Quote:

The fact that the majority of the history of America was full of ill treatment of women, minorities, low-income people, etc., and much of this was reversed in the 60's by the actions of so many an atheist left-winger.

Were those problems caused by Christianity, or were they problems that exist in the human population all over the world that Christianity, for whatever reason, was unable to correct? You have not established a causal link here, only your opinion. You cannot be so ignorant as to claim Christians haven’t tried to alleviated suffering in the world.

Quote:

It was Christian nations (Western European powers) that started the slave trade, and other Christian nations (America and Brazil, for example) which bought the slaves.

Are you saying that Romans never had slaves? That the ancient Greeks never had slaves? That the ancient Egyptians never had slaves?

That slave trade that existed in the Americas was never Christian. The charlatans that supported it followed none of the laws of the Bible regarding the treatment of slaves. The indentured servant policies of the colonies were closer to what the Bible teaches.

quoting me:
>And amoung other things, like destroying
>perhaps the 3 most evil nations of history:
> Nazi Germany,

Quote:

A nation who's dominant political party was quite extensively supporting by Christians.

I have addressed this above. But I need to add, Hitler was also fought by Christians, who protected Jews (Corrie Ten Boom), resisted Nazi policies (Dietrich Bonnhoffer) and even died in Hitler's death camps for that resistance.
You may accuse me of avoiding your points, but then you would be admitting your guilt in ignoring mine.

quote:
>Imperial Japan

Quote:

A die-hard theist nation (The Emperor was "God").

Strange, I thought most Japanese were of Shinto and Buddhist beliefs, neither of which involve worshipping the emperor. I believe you are purposely misrepresenting the truth here.

quote:
>and the USSR.

Quote:

Who probably wouldn't have been so pissed off at Christians in the first place had the Church been preaching Jesus' message of helping the poor, as opposed to being puppets of the Czar and the ruling class.

I seem to remember Jews from the USSR trying to hide from US TV cameras when asked to speak about their sufferings under that Atheist regime. What did they do to deserve abuse from Soviet Atheists? And what about Aleksandr Isaevich Solzhenitsyn? What did he do?

The Atheists in the Marxist states past and present, were just as intelligent as you and your fellows on this board, as was Marx himself. When they took control of their respective countries and forced religious people totally out of power, the sin nature, the wickedness of their heart/core/personality gave licence to their sinful impulses and history now tells of the result. Have no doubt, the same can happen here.

The human heart is desperately wicked, and unless people turn to God and recognize that there are moral laws created by that Creator that we must follow, men will eventually fall into evil. Nations that walk away from God will all follow the same path as the USSR and PRC.
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

01-04-2002, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Sorry if I garbled that. I meant Skeptics are skeptical about everything except their own skepticism.

The MOST important part of skepticism is to be skeptical of one�s own skepticism. Without that constant awareness of the errors in thinking and thinking about thinking, it becomes much more difficult to understand where our ideas go wrong.

FarSeeker · 01-04-2002, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nixon:
It's kind of funny watching Christians blame atheists for all the troubles, and the atheists blaming all the Christians on this website.

And (except for maybe a couple Atheist) the Atheists on this site never blaming the Marxist for murdering the people on that airliner several years ago (KAL 007 wasn't it?) or the Tiananmen massacre. It must be because they were commited by fellow Atheists.

Quote:

In America, atheists are looked down upon as something to be pitied (or converted). It is then little wonder that atheists don't think much of Christians.

I personally watching "real" Christian reaction to current troubles with Afganistan have concluded I can't tell the difference between "real" Christians and "real" Muslims. They both say their faith is the truth and that they would die or kill for it. Then in the next breath they both claim that theirs is a religion of peace. History proves that both religions cannot both be true, and neither is a religion of peace.

How about this:
I have been watching Atheists and have concluded I can't tell the difference between "real" Atheists and "Marxist" Atheists. They both say their faith is the truth and that they would die or kill for it. Then in the next breath they both claim that they love peace. History proves that both cannot both be true, and neither is way of peace.

Quote:

Talk about devout lying muslim dorks

Another thread on this site (concerning Singledad I think) complains about how Christians resort to insults. But of course no one is going to complain about your insults, are they bubba?

FarSeeker · 01-05-2002, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:
The chruch wasn't agaisnt the idea of the world being round. Where did you get that idea? The RCC was into defending Arostotle so they rejected certain early observations about planetary motion and moutins on the moon, but they never said the earth was flat.

Thank you for those details, and the help.

FarSeeker · 01-05-2002, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Synaesthesia:
The MOST important part of skepticism is to be skeptical of one’s own skepticism. Without that constant awareness of the errors in thinking and thinking about thinking, it becomes much more difficult to understand where our ideas go wrong.

Read the "Skeptic" magazine:

Quote:

"But this pure position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually no one. If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying of a subatomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing screen of our intellectual cloud chamber."
_Skeptic_ magazine,
:"What is a Skeptic?" (every issue)

You're off the screen dude.

01-05-2002, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Nations that walk away from God will all follow the same path as the USSR and PRC.

Many nations are currently walking away from your particular God and gods in general. They will not necessarily follow the same fate as the communists because their system of government is not faith based. They aren't based upon a dogma which is so powerful that it can trample the rights and dignity of the human individual. THAT is what happened in Nazi Germany, in Russia, in the Spanish Inquisition and in China.

Quote:

"But this pure position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually no one. If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying of a subatomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing screen of our intellectual cloud chamber."
_Skeptic_ magazine,

I suspect that Skeptic magazine was criticizing a rather more literal notion of skepticism about skepticism. The notion that �maybe I shouldn�t investigate and question things after all.� The kind of recursive skepticism I am talking about is of a rather more methodological nature. I question my methods and my ways of questioning my methods. Indeed, to a greater or lesser degree all human beings do this. I simply make a conscious effort.

Regards,
Synaesthesia

FarSeeker · 02-07-2002, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Synaesthesia:

Many nations are currently walking away from your particular God and gods in general. They will not necessarily follow the same fate as the communists because their system of government is not faith based. They aren't based upon a dogma which is so powerful that it can trample the rights and dignity of the human individual. THAT is what happened in Nazi Germany, in Russia, in the Spanish Inquisition and in China.

I suspect that Skeptic magazine was criticizing a rather more literal notion of skepticism about skepticism. The notion that “maybe I shouldn’t investigate and question things after all.” The kind of recursive skepticism I am talking about is of a rather more methodological nature. I question my methods and my ways of questioning my methods. Indeed, to a greater or lesser degree all human beings do this. I simply make a conscious effort.

Regards,
Synaesthesia

Current events differ with your opinion. As they turn from God, they turn to man. You think that some evil "ism" was responsible for the acts of those governments you mention. Remember that Atheism is an "ism" too. It too contains dogmas, some just as dangerous as Marxism and Nazism.

In the 1980's a member of the American Atheists seriously suggested that Christians' belief in God was a form of insanity. The AA said that since almost every state had laws for dealing with dangerous insane people, these laws could be used to round up and incarcerate all the Christians and remove their Children from their threatening environment.

An Iowa (I believe) professor proposed a rule in 1982 or 83, for all universities, that would prevent Christians from entering or holding any scientific positions, hold any scientific degrees, or passing any science course. And for those that had already passed, there class records could be voided unless they renounced their beliefs. I learned of this from the "Skeptical Inquirer" whos editor at the time supported it. A writter for the SecHum magazine "Free Inquiry" recently supported the idea behind this proposal. Atheists at the Delphi site proposed that if you didn't believe in evolutionism you couldn't hold a large list of jobs which they proceeded to list.

So, you see... the dogma that created all that suffering rests and rots inside the precious faith of Atheism, not just Nazism, Marxism, or other "ism.".
(The core of those beliefs is the claim that human reason alone is suffiecient to live by.)

Please note the start of this thread.
komazour:

Quote:

I always wondered why did the concept of communism did not appear for such a long time. But then I found it right in the Bible Acts 4:31 - 4:37. It is a great irony that Communist states are atheist and here in Democracy many of us are theists.

Tell me, how can the evil committed by Marxists be connected thru the altruism of these Christians to Christianity?
Yet komazour is trying to say just that.

Also, answer his question. Why are states with religious freedom freer that those of controlled by Atheists? Isn't freedom rational? If you want to say it's because of Marxist dogma, I can only ask isn't that dogma the result of Marx's rational Atheist thought?

So, now there are 2 kinds of skepticism, yours and theirs? But do you question your ways of questioning your ways of questioning your methods.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

Vorkosigan · 02-08-2002, 03:28 AM

Remember that Atheism is an "ism" too. It too contains dogmas, some just as dangerous as Marxism and Nazism.

What would those be? As far as I know, atheism is the lack of belief in gods. That would make certain Confucians, Buddhists, secular humanists, total skeptics, and many other groups -- atheists. What dogmas would you say that the Confucians, the Buddhists and the total skeptics all share?

Michael

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02-08-2002, 03:28 AM	#60
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Remember that Atheism is an "ism" too. It too contains dogmas, some just as dangerous as Marxism and Nazism. What would those be? As far as I know, atheism is the lack of belief in gods. That would make certain Confucians, Buddhists, secular humanists, total skeptics, and many other groups -- atheists. What dogmas would you say that the Confucians, the Buddhists and the total skeptics all share? Michael

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