Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Totalitarianist · 05-11-2003, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
I think that we ought to introduce Totalitarianist to the Holocaust deniers and to the defenders of Biblical genocide.

I think we ought to dismiss the above as ad hominem.

Totalitarianist · 05-11-2003, 03:41 AM

Jat-
"New York's newspaper the "Village Voice" of January 12, 1988 has already debunked the claims about the Ukrainian famine, as being wildly exaggerated and as having been created by fascist Ukrainians, in some cases caught in the act of fraud in propaganda creation. Ludo Martens has also debunked poet . . . Robert Conquest for his use of Nazi sources, Nazi collaborator sources and fiction books to buttress his most widely cited story of the Ukrainian famine.(8) 80,000 Ukrainians served in the Nazi army including some in the SS and that is the kind of human material that gets wide quotation.

"While some people may have starved in the Ukraine, Werth's numbers are inflated to the point where the Village Voice referred to the famine as a "hoax."

Jat · 05-11-2003, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Totalitarianist
Jat-

I suggest you do a little RESEARCH before you make such wild claims. You could start here:

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/bookstore/commie.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill.../articles.html
http://www.marxists.org

ad hominem blah blah blah blah.... I thought the mods deleted ad hominem?

Maybe, but this isn't one of those. If you insist on using propaganda sites, you're going to be laughed at.

Jat · 05-11-2003, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Totalitarianist
I think we ought to dismiss the above as ad hominem.

Let's not since it isn't.

AtomSmasher · 05-11-2003, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Totalitarianist:
I think we ought to dismiss the above as ad hominem.

That's not an ad hominem.

This is an ad hominem:

From: Top Ten Ways To Post Like A Conspiracy Lunatic

Quote:

Top Ten Ways To Post Like A Conspiracy Lunatic

10. Have no sense of humor, irony or whimsy.

9. The fact that an "official" investigation shows there was no conspiracy is not evidence that the conspiracy does not exist; rather, it is evidence that the conspiracy does exist. Otherwise, why would they deny it?

8. Use "quotation" marks, *highlighting*, CAPITAL LETTERS and exclamation points!!!! indiscriminately.

Example: All the "official" photographs of the Roswell "debris" are clearly photographs of weather balloon material, *proving* CONCLUSIVELY that the "government" *removed* the REAL remains and substituted the balloon parts in a vain attempt at a COVERUP!!!!!!!

7. Follow up every non-sequitor with "COINCIDENCE?"

Example: NASA, the same organization that says the face on Mars is *not* a sign of intelligent life, also used Tang on its early missions. Tang is a product of General Foods, which owns the candy bar manufacturer Mars, Inc. COINCIDENCE?

6. The most tenuous of connections between a person who debunks your theory and the alleged conspirators is cause to disregard the debunker.

Example: Dr. Levin P. Stacy of Michigan State University, a "journalism" professor, argues that the Roswell "phenomena" is merely an example of millinerian "hysteria," and that no coverup exists. However, STACY WORKS AT A PUBLICLY FUNDED UNIVERSITY, WHICH RELIES HEAVILY ON GOVERNMENT GRANTS!!!!

5. Insert examples of how your personal life has been wrecked because the conspirators know you are on to them. If your significant other has left you, it's not because of the tinfoil hat you've taken to wearing, it's because "they" got to him or her.

4. Always put commonly accepted descriptions in quotation marks. Examples: "British" Royal Family, press "commentator," "progressive" thinker. Also, make sure you never report anyone as "saying" anything, they always "claim" it.

3. Insist that the experts know nothing, and that all you need is the Bible, the Constitution, Black's Law Dictionary and a handgun to prove your point.

2. Make it up as you go along.

And the Number One Way to Post Like a Conspiracy Lunatic:

1. You're not cleared for that.

Jat · 05-11-2003, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Totalitarianist
Jat-
"New York's newspaper the "Village Voice" of January 12, 1988 has already debunked the claims about the Ukrainian famine, as being wildly exaggerated and as having been created by fascist Ukrainians, in some cases caught in the act of fraud in propaganda creation. Ludo Martens has also debunked poet . . . Robert Conquest for his use of Nazi sources, Nazi collaborator sources and fiction books to buttress his most widely cited story of the Ukrainian famine.(8) 80,000 Ukrainians served in the Nazi army including some in the SS and that is the kind of human material that gets wide quotation.

"While some people may have starved in the Ukraine, Werth's numbers are inflated to the point where the Village Voice referred to the famine as a "hoax."

The Village Voice? Never heard of it. The occured in the Early 1930's. I suppose that you're going to use some creationist's site next to prove that the Earth is flat as well?

You have to learn to tell the difference between propaganda literalure and facts.

Totalitarianist · 05-11-2003, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
Maybe, but this isn't one of those. If you insist on using propaganda sites, you're going to be laughed at.

Then let's stop quoting CNN, BCC, CBC, Americana, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. Let's not quote anything at all.

It is not a propaganda site. This is just like Nazi Germany -- all unpopular opinions (or in this case facts) are rejected as "propaganda" and not even examined. Perhaps if it were mere "propaganda" you could refute it! But alas, it is difficult to refute objective historians whose sources, in this case, are 99% reliable, like, for example, the Soviet Archives.

Totalitarianist · 05-11-2003, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
The Village Voice? Never heard of it. The occured in the Early 1930's. I suppose that you're going to use some creationist's site next to prove that the Earth is flat as well?

You have to learn to tell the difference between propaganda literalure and facts.

You have to learn to stop dismissing unpopular views with no real justification and you have to learn, more importantly, to stop attacking the arguer. I could say the same thing about CBC news (or any other source of information), i.e. say that it is propaganda, and by that means reject it entirely. You don't even justify yourself.

Jat · 05-11-2003, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by Totalitarianist

Then let's stop quoting CNN, BCC, CBC, Americana, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. Let's not quote anything at all.

The difference is that we know the difference. You apparently don't.

It is not a propaganda site. This is just like Nazi Germany -- all unpopular opinions (or in this case facts) are rejected as "propaganda" and not even examined. Perhaps if it were mere "propaganda" you could refute it! But alas, it is difficult to refute objective historians whose sources, in this case, are 99% reliable, like, for example, the Soviet Archives.

The Soviet Archives reliable? If you heard some of the things out of it you wouldn't be so eager to claim it as a reliable source of anything. Much of it is disinformation.

Totalitarianist · 05-11-2003, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jat
[i]The difference is that we know the difference. You apparently don't.

There it is again -- "you". You, you, you, you. All you can say is "you".

Quote:

The Soviet Archives reliable? If you heard some of the things out of it you wouldn't be so eager to claim it as a reliable source of anything. Much of it is disinformation.

Good! That is where much of the anti-Stalin propaganda is coming from!! Thank you!

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05-11-2003, 03:41 AM	#12
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	Jat- "New York's newspaper the "Village Voice" of January 12, 1988 has already debunked the claims about the Ukrainian famine, as being wildly exaggerated and as having been created by fascist Ukrainians, in some cases caught in the act of fraud in propaganda creation. Ludo Martens has also debunked poet . . . Robert Conquest for his use of Nazi sources, Nazi collaborator sources and fiction books to buttress his most widely cited story of the Ukrainian famine.(8) 80,000 Ukrainians served in the Nazi army including some in the SS and that is the kind of human material that gets wide quotation. "While some people may have starved in the Ukraine, Werth's numbers are inflated to the point where the Village Voice referred to the famine as a "hoax."

05-11-2003, 04:06 AM	#19
Jat Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,311	Originally posted by Totalitarianist *Then let's stop quoting CNN, BCC, CBC, Americana, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. Let's not quote anything at all.* The difference is that we know the difference. You apparently don't. It is not a propaganda site. This is just like Nazi Germany -- all unpopular opinions (or in this case facts) are rejected as "propaganda" and not even examined. Perhaps if it were mere "propaganda" you could refute it! But alas, it is difficult to refute objective historians whose sources, in this case, are 99% reliable, like, for example, the Soviet Archives. The Soviet Archives reliable? If you heard some of the things out of it you wouldn't be so eager to claim it as a reliable source of anything. Much of it is disinformation.

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