Glory

When they have been led to believe they will get it. Withholding has to be preceeded by leading someone on.

Glory

HelenM

Ok, I see what you're saying. Thanks.

Helen

dk

dk: I don�t see how abortion can remedy a rape. In fact when a raped women submits herself to an abortion, the intrusive operation reopens the wound physically and psychology. I don�t want to turn the discussion into an abortion argument, I�m simply saying abortion is no remedy for rape, much less ignorance or shame. One might offer abortion as a medical treatment for rape, but that�s problematic because the cure implies pregnancy a disease. Only the most radical elements of feminism call pregnancy a disease (STD).

dk: You�re in denial, and its absurd. The Supreme Court justified abortion as a remedy for failed contraception, and did so to secure a women�s Right to an Abortion. Taken seriously the argument you present might well deprive women of a right to an abortion.

dk: Go read Casey v PA 505 U.S. 833. Justice O�Connor writes, �The Roe rule's limitation on state power could not be repudiated without serious inequity to people who, for two decades of economic and social developments, have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail. The ability of women to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation has been facilitated by their ability to control their reproductive lives. The Constitution serves human values, and while the effect of reliance on Roe cannot be exactly measured, neither can the certain costs of overruling Roe for people who have ordered their thinking and living around that case be dismissed. Pp. 855-856.�

To be fair, I used the word preventative birth control whereas Justice O�Connor used the term contraception. Preventative birth control being much less broad. Abortion and abortifacient schemes don�t prevent contraception; abortifacient schemes prevent implantation (7-10 days after conception), and abortion terminates the pregnancy after implantation but before birth. Only rhythm, barrier and estrogen pills employ contraceptive schemes. I go through this detail to demonstrate how carefully O�Connor chose her words, to make failed contraceptive as broad as possible to protect women�s rights to abortifacient schemes.

Preventative birth control fails for all kinds of reasons, not the least of which being the many side affects women are forced to endure taking contraceptives. A failure of preventative birth control is marked by the event of an unplanned pregnancy. While many pregnancies are unplanned, they aren�t necessarily unwanted. Many couples view an unplanned pregnancy a blessing, not a problem. Independent of whether a women believes an unplanned pregnancy a blessing or problem, abortion can only be elected when the mother believes the pregnancy to be a problem. There are other medical reasons for an abortion, the vast majority of abortions entail a failure to prevent conception or end the pregnancy. This doesn�t imply a pregnant women has special insight about babies, or in particular her fetus. For example many women that want children may abort, only to discover the decision deprived them of children forever, because they subsequently became infertile. The courts have no remedy for this poor women. The hypothesis, �Women control their reproductive system with preventative birth control�, argues women plan an unplanned pregnancy, and abortion is the cure for an unplanned pregnancy. The number of abortions women elect is therefore direct consequences of unplanned problem pregnancies, whether a women practices abstinence, natural birth control, or some other artificial method. Lets be clear, if a healthy mature women has consensual sex without using some form of birth control, and gets pregnant, then the pregnancy was planned. Clearly no rational women has an abortion for fun.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]</p>

Aerik Von

Sex is only as good as the emotions driving it, be they excitement, rage, revenge, love, passion...

The feelings/motivations from sex will be no different married than not - it's only that most women become resentful after years and years of abuse from men...

dk

And I thought you didn't want to talk to me any more.

Glory

I didn't wish to continue a conversation which was leading nowhere. This is a seperate issue altogether.

Your comments were utterly irrelevant and inflammatory. I am tired of your doing that and decided to call you on it.

Glory

Glory

Don't men become resentful after years and years of abuse from women?

Glory

Glory

dk,

Here we are again. Lets get a couple of things clear.

First, the possibiltiy of failure does not indicate the likelyhood of failure nor does it indicate a trend of failure.

Second, In order to be effective a thing must be employed. You continue to ignore these facts as they are inconvenient for you.

Third, Justice O'connor's oppinion on abortion is irrelevant. She does not site statisics. She only acknowledges that contraception does not always occur. She does not say anything about the reasons for its failure. Contraception includes the rhythm method. We all know how well that works. Justice O'connor also refrains from making any speculation about people who rely on the availability of abortion. She merely observes that they exist. Her comments do not reflect the reliability of contraception.

Fourth, the side effects of some forms of contraception have no effect on the success or failure rate of that form of contraception. They are a drawback, for some, to contraception. Your mention of the side effects, again, is part of your overall attempt to slander birthcontrol.

Fifth, your reference to forms of birth control which prevent implantation as "schemes" is designed to elicit a negative reaction much like your earlier use of the word steroids. More slander.

Sixth, contraception has prevented more abortions than anyone can count.

You conclude that copntraception actually costs women control over their bodies. That requires an astounding feat of mental and logical gymnastics.

I conclude that you think we are stupid. Sorry to disappoint you but when someone tells me that 2+2=5 I notice the lie.

Glory

99Percent

An abortion is not a remedy for rape, but it can certainly help minimize the effects. Imagine a woman forced to carry to term the product of rape and then feed the baby and see it develop to half of the being of the rapist... It must be the most horrendous, dehumanizing experience imaginable. I find it distraughtful that you will even consider viable such an option. The once and for all "intrusive operation that reopens a wound" is nothing compared to a lifelong experience of being reminded of the crime by seeing the product of such crime.

Pregnancy is a disease by the woman who doesn't desire it. Its hard for a male to imagine it (are you a male dk?) I am not female, but to see a being grow in my gut, like an alien gutbuster, without my consent must be the most horrible feeling ever. No wonder whole movie genres are built upon this idea! Absurd. Women take contraceptives to prevent contraception, obviously. Women acknowledge at an early age, that they have a lot to lose in a pregnancy - a newborn to feed and nurture, resources to house and feed and take care of their offspring. To a much higher degree than men. To minimize these risks because of "side effects" is to not understand at all the viewpoint of women have on their side of human reproduction. Nonsense, Many couples deliberate on the surprising pregnancy event and then decide to have the child. To assume that generally unplanned pregnancies automatically result in happy outcomes is just plain dumb. Sometimes, but not the usual case, IMO. This is an alarmist negative connotation of abortion. The risk of permanent fertility damage of abortion is minimal if carried out normally and with proper medical procedure. In fact illegal abortion increases this risk unnecessarily, because it has to be carried out in underground hush hush operations. So what? A woman should be able to choose to change her mind after the sex act. It is her body and her product she is carrying. What if she realizes a couple of weeks after having sex with the guy that this guy is a complete imbecile? And it really happens all the time. A woman tells her boyfriend "I am pregnant, lets get married" The jerk answers "Screw you! I have no intentions of being a father!" And this can happen even when this same guy promised the stars and moon to this woman in order to bed her.

She would realize as a woman that she doesn't want to nurture the offspring of an asshole and would gladly abort it. No need to force her to carry it to term if she doesn't want too. Its a question of invading the privacy of her body and reproductivity - as simple as that. Absolutely, because abortion is not fun at all, in fact its a major conscious and deliberate and very painful action to commit.

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]</p>

Ted Hoffman

I broke up with my current GF over exactly this.
We dated for two years - we had agreed initially to keep it platonic. I was young, naive and head-over-heels.
Two years down the line, naturally, the petting got heavy.
I couldn't take it any more.
She said we have to wait till we are married.
It was making me unhappy and I ended it &lt;the toughest decision I have had to make in my life so far&gt;.

Luckily, she later apologised and we were able to make up and start afresh.

When does someone have the right...?

So long as you are a grown woman ready to be in a relationship with a grown man, he has a right (and vice versa). Its only a matter of "too early" but not "no right to expect".
Of course how each party handles the demands is their own business - but love relationships are merely means to sexual relationships. Marriage is meant to legalize such relationships - not start them - IMO. As far as I am concerned, if someone is two-timing, a marriage certificate wont make them comitted. If they are irresponsible, a piece of paper wont make them responsible. Its naive to bank happiness and security on a piece of paper - unless one is after material wealth &lt;the spoils of divorce&gt; - which the law really favours women on.

We have sexual needs and lack of a marriage certificate does not make them cease to exist. If a woman values her self-worth and dignity in terms of whether she has had sex or not(virginity status), and in terms of how stubborn she is to get a man to sign papers before having sex, she needs to have her head checked.

IMHO.