Pomp

luvluv,

For example the notion that God has not left evidence because He did not want his presence to be directly detectable, as evidence of an omnipotent omniscient God would significantly interfere with free will.

I'm digressing, as you note, but this is comparable to the proposition that one's favorite conspiracy theory doesn't require evidence because black ops leave no trace of their actions. (Yes, that's for you Koy. ) You're two steps less parsimonious than a naturalist because you, first, assume god without evidence and, then, assume a special reason for there not being evidence.

Let's please not get into a big digression here now, though, please?

If you like, we could start a new thread to address this point.

Automaton

Well at least luvluv admits believing in God is irrational. Is this just a giant ad hominem, or do you actually have a point to make?

Jobar

luvluv, we skeptics are quite aware of our potential for bias. It's one of the factors included anytime we calculate the truth or falsity of any given proposition. How accurately we judge is partly dependent on how well we identify these biases.

You seem to be saying that we unbelievers are biased against the existence of God. But as Typhon points out, some of us are aware that we are biased for an all-powerful and all-loving Father Figure. Yet our final judgement- that no such figure actually exists- comes about despite this bias.

Let's turn your question about. Are *you* fully aware of, and fully allowing for, your own biases in favor of the existence of God? Are you keeping the finger of bias off the scales which weigh the evidence for and against? Remember the admonition about logs and motes!

luvluv

Typhon:

Conversely, I wish/want that I could sleep with every girl who was willing. I wish I could keep my money and spend it on whatever I wanted independant of any other restrictions other than my own desires. I wish I didn't have anyone to answer to for my behavior other than myself. I wish I could order my life so that my ambitions alone control my direction, instead of them being proscribed by God's will (without which I would pursue my career as single-mindedly as I did before I gave my life to Him and entered onto a little detour, career-wise, that has allowed me time to know Him better).

What theists do you know? I don't know of any Christians who doesn't have desires and longings that are in contradiction to the Christian ethic. We call those accumulated desires "the flesh" and you'll hear many sermons preached about the difficulty of even willing the flesh's demise, much less of actually killing it. The Christian's life is noted for his struggles against his desires, and this includes his desire for autonomy and control over the affairs of his own life. Submission is a big theme in the Christian life and no one I know wants to constantly submit to another person's will even if that other Person is God.

I have considered the benefits of atheist life. I am well aware that it has it's advantages. All in all, though, for me the advantages of Christianity far outweigh them.

The real question, Typhon, is have you considered how your desires against God's existence have effected your belief in God? How much consideration have you given that? Have you considered how your sexual, economic, and even egotistical (after all you have a lot of your own personal reputation staked in atheism by now) concerns bias you against theism even before evidence is presented to you?

Congratulations. You're the first.

Jobar:

Yes, but I never claimed that my decisions were the product of reason alone.

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

Typhon

None of the things you've outlined above are (1) nearly as strong a desire as the ones I put forth, and some of them, for example, I and many, many other people absolutely do not share, but more importantly (2) do not necessarily have anything to do with being a theist.

I would go so far as to say that you are frankly living in a fantasy world if you think that without some god hanging around, Christian or otherwise, you can:

1. Sleep with every partner who is willing. Oh come on, how silly is this? For one thing, this can very often mean a life about as celibate as your average monk (er, scratch that, likely more so). Why don't you ask some of the atheists here who haven't gotten laid since Carter was in the White House? Another, cultural and societal factors do not relent simply because you take the gods out of perspective. I can't sleep with every girl who is willing, unless I want my fiancé to cut my balls off. Besides, not every religion in the world is hung up about sexual issues or to the same degree. Had I wanted those things that I outlined in my earlier post, and gobs of sexual freedom as well, I would have no problem having both. I haven't chosen to be an atheist because I want to get laid all the time. That's a very, very poor assumption on your part, if that is at all what you're trying to say here.

2. Keep my wages/profits and spend it on whatever I want, independent of any other restrictions other than my own desires. ROTFLMAO… Oh my, oh my non-existent gods and little goddesses. This one had me in stitches. What state and country do you live in Luvluv? I'd love to have those tax exemptions! Why, I'd have to be a church or a religion, oddly enough, if I wanted tax free status. Goodness, I tell you that spending my money on bombs to drop on non-Western nations is not in line with my own desires, nor is padding the pension funds of our robber baron utilities, phone services, and energy company executives. Don't get me started about my property taxes, or the fact that I can't purchase import DVDs that will play on my stupid American DVD player. And AGAIN, even if this fantasy life did exist, it would never bar me from becoming a theist. 99.9% of practicing theists that I know, have not a whit of difference in the restrictions of their purchasing habits and/or taxes, based solely on their theism or religion. I suppose if you want to compare my ability to buy a ham compared to an orthodox Jewish theist, you might have something, but then I don't eat pork either, so both of us would be in the same boat once the purchase was made. Likewise for poxy Christians. I don't see them selling all their worldly belongings, be they Pope or Ned Hey-Diddly-Ho Flanders, dressing themselves in rags, and climbing a pole to become some stylite in the desert, content to drink from the dew and eat what occasional bugs happen to fly into their mouths. Why for almost no change to my financial habits, I could have the peace of mind that belief in a fantastical, improbable, fairy land can bring. And that's a lot!

3. Be unanswerable for my behavior to anyone other than myself. Wow, what a utopia you must think we atheist live in! Some candy-cane, gumdrop land where the skies rain lemonade and stacks of cash grow on truffla trees. I am answerable to more federal, state, and local agencies than I want to even consider. Don't get started on my family! Oh, and my friends and loved ones, as well as my peers, co-workers, employers, and household pets. Seriously luvluv, each one of your examples gets goofier and goofier. You don't really think like this do you? I really wonder where you have gotten such misconceptions about how an "atheist" lifestyle differs on the average from that of a theist.

4. "I wish I could order my life so that my ambitions alone control my direction, instead of them being proscribed by God's will (without which I would pursue my career as single-mindedly as I did before I gave my life to Him and entered onto a little detour, career-wise, that has allowed me time to know Him better)." OH MY _______ (insert imaginary being of one's choice here). I was right. These just keep getting weirder. No one fully controls their own direction in life, atheist or theist, or bleeding Santa Claus. There are almost unlimited examples of theist religions, Christian or otherwise, where with rare exception, the faithful follow their ambitions AND receive guidance or think they do, from on high. Sheesh, another example of you having things assbackwards. I and many, many people would LOVE to have some sky-daddy to tell me what to do with my life. I've struggled with this for decades. Hell, this is why people join the military all the time, they can't do a good job of directing their own lives, or would like someone else to do it for them. I certainly have not pursued my "career" in a single-minded fashion, and I've been an atheist all my life!

A LOT. Not all of them Christians, thankfully. But a whole hell of a lot of those as well.

I don't agree with you here at all. There is likely NO greater psychological motivator than the fear of self-extinction. We all want to go on living and being, more than any other single social worry. Death is a preoccupation and problem that has given rise to both cultures and religions. We want, and in the case of many theists are willing, to accept the comfort of a promised life ever after or at least a purpose and explanation for our finite spans, no matter what the cost to our logic and reason.

Again, this is the hang-up of not every religion. I know plenty of Christians who aren't into this backwards repressive viewpoint on "the flesh." I know even more non-Christian theists who I can say the same about. I'm not one of these, because there still is no evidence for god or gods, and a lot of evidence that religion is all just the twisted product of man.

Furthermore, people are drawn to systems where they are titillated with bad things that feel good. We love setting things up as bad, and denying ourselves these things in an orgy of repression and taboo. Submission is a big theme in the S&M and bondage lifestyles and I know lots of people who want to constantly submit to another person's will, and especially so, if that other person is a god.

Oh my goodness, you obviously don't have a clear picture about such supposed "benefits" if you think the kind of things you used as examples above are even close to reality. Please do enumerate the "benefits of atheist life" for the benefit, ahem, of all us affected atheists. I'd like to know exactly what I've been missing out on for all this time.

Fantasies aside, you just contradicted yourself anyway. You clearly stated that "for me the advantages of Christianity far outweigh (the advantages of atheism)." I'm not an atheist because its advantages outweigh those offered by theism. I'm an atheist because this is the most likely to be true position based on the evidence, DESPITE the fact that I see more personal comfort and social advantages in being a theist. I can't ignore the evidence and logic just because it would be better for me or make me more happy, if I could suspend my disbelief.

However, with that statement, it sure sounds like you're a Christian because you find the advantages worth more than the disadvantages... IMO, this is a dangerous way to determine objective truths about the world we live in.

Again, you are nothing but flat out, demonstrably wrong here. I have no desires against god's existence, other than a desire to arrive at the truth. You have shown nothing to the contrary. Your attempt to show some kind of weird, utopian bias to my philosophical position is an abysmal failure. And for your information, I'd drop atheism in a heartbeat if I found conclusive proof that it was a flawed and incorrect stance for describing the universe. I have no "personal reputation" staked in being an atheist. I see myself as a human being first, and an atheist by a far, far second. All you have managed to do here is show that your perceptions of atheism, secular lifestyles, and the reasons for me being an atheist, are woefully skewed and it would appear to me, a long time atheist, badly inaccurate.

Hardly. You are saying nothing less than that I'm lying. PROVE IT. I'm not the first, nor even a rare case. Humans are not only capable of this, but I hate to break it to you, some even do so on a regular and fairly consistent basis.

.T.

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

Foxhole Atheist

“That's not true. I'm sure you make irrational decsions all the time. You are human.”

On occasion, I do happen to make irrational decisions. However, with regard to my world view and the thought process that shapes it, I try to expel any perceived bias that may arise during that process. In considering a world view, and this is what we are discussing here, this is not an occurrence for snap decisions. Considerable thought is involved and if one is not mature in their thinking, bias creeps in.

You must understand that many atheists were once theists. The initial “enabling of belief” was more or less an acquiescence of belief rather than any concrete decision made as we acquired knowledge. We simply assumed the world view of those most influential upon us; principally our parents. As we obtained more knowledge, and a better understanding of the knowledge we had already accumulated, we rejected that original acquiescence and proceeded to mold our world view based upon the empirical evidence.

As we grow and mature, the majority of us leave behind the belief in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy; well, I believe you understand where this is going. Once we give up our childish vision of the world, god is no longer necessary as well.

Try to re-read Typhon’s last post a little more objectively and you may begin to understand that to the majority of the non-believers here, your posts, although well articulated, appear to be backed by an intellect remaining to mature.

DRFseven

luvluv, bias exists for every decision; without bias, no decision could ever be made because there is nothing to compel the decision. People who cannot find a bias get "stuck" (this is very common during depression and with some types of brain impairment. This is one of the points I was hoping to get you to address in the other thread; the mechanism of decision.

Viti

luvluv, why do xians think we all became atheists so we can "sin"? Is there perhaps some jealousy or are you just building a strawman?

Amazon

Hi Luvluv.

Speaking for myself only, I went against my bias and read things I disgreed with when I was still a Christian because I was interested in different perspectives on the issue. I did have a bias toward believing in the Christian God, even if I wasn't a fan of the bible, but my need for truth - in this case - was greater.
I went against my bias and admitted to myself and my family that I wasn't sure I believed in god when that reading uncovered what I considered compelling evidence against the existence of any gods.
Now that I am an open atheist, I still read as much as I can get my hands on from varied perspectives on this subject, because I realize that I know very, very little on this subject as whole, regardless of my continued fervent study.

Now, as an atheist, when I come across questions of religion or the god-concept, but have not read much on the specific topic, I try very hard to be fair, but I admit that my non-theistic bias sometimes fills in the gaps and I am likely to take the skeptical side of the argument. I'm not afraid to say that I don't know, though. I am just admitting that I sense my own non-theistic bias on subjects about which I know little.

Theli

Ofcourse, a person is always somewhat biased.
You are never completely blank(neutral) when entering a discussion, or reading a text regarding an issue.
However, if the bias is not emotionally charged it can easilly get run over by opposing arguments/proofs.
For example, if I (as an atheist) were to hate all religion, and hate people who believed in god, my bias would be very strong towards atheism.

I personally, don't know what side (theism/atheism) I was most drawn to before I got interested in the question. I didn't have any info, and was kind of dangling on the edge.

I think biased opinion is most common for religion as this is more emotionally charged and is often handed down through generations as tradition.
We don't have any atheist hollydays.

[ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>