Tired Runner

I hear that.

What I have to add, is that a true believer will be able to change their life completely, with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course. It's quite hard to judge a person because we don't really know what goes on inside them. Obviously you'll have posers. Obviously you'll have people who make a big scene, then revert back to normal the next day. I'm not really sure why you say Christianity, at heart, is an evasion of responsibility. Perhaps you could PM me and explain? The thing with true believers, is that they literally live "in the Spirit". They do their best not to push what they have accepted away; they change. It has been in my experience that some people accept Jesus (for real), but the next day, they've forgotten. The devil has done his work.

Sorry if my post was non-organized, but I am just that as of now.

emotional

You were not there when Jesus rose from the dead.



Evolution is fact and theory.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciaca...ins/things.htm

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/default.htm



I've read plenty of it, and the ICR too. All they do is fit the facts to agree with a literal reading of the Bible. That's not science.



You don't know anything about God. You just have the false ideas that the Bible gives about Him.



If you have to borrow the righteousness of God, then you have not done anything. You have not done a thing to deserve to stand before God. Christianity is a religion for lazy people who don't want to do a single bit of work.



Yes, and repentance has nothing to do with the blood of Jesus. That is just a myth. Repentance is a contrite heart before God.



And if you honestly think that you will stand before the throne of God and say "well I believed in Jesus" and expect that God will say, oh, welcome good and faithful servant, then I can only pray for you.



I have more of a real basis than you do.



Hell is torture - that's what the Bible says it is. And it's not just by any stretch of imagination.

One Way, you must repent. You are worshipping the Devil, so you must repent. Christianity is Satan-Worship.

Mageth

Others have answered this brilliantly, but I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

Originally posted by One Way
Dear Mageth

So, I assume you believe that we have evolved over billions of years.

Well, you can drop the "Dear" part. You don't know me well enough to use such a familiar salutation.

Yes, life has evolved on earth for billions of years; somewhere around 3.6 billion years. That's not a belief; it's a fact.

I assume you believe that by random "chance" we all happened to evolve into the amazingly complex lifeforms we see today.

You assume wrong. The evolutionary process is much more than random chance. Why don't you bone up on evolutionary theory so you can avoid making such wrong assumptions in the future? You could also read up on self-organizing systems, complexity theory, chaos theory and the like.

Oh yes, that seems extremely logical.

It's only illogical when viewed wrongly as being pure "random chance", as you seem to think. What's illogical to me is to make such a statement about a subject that you obviously don't understand.

When I look around, the whole of earth screams out nothing but "intelligent designer."

Tell that to the victims of tapeworms, liver flukes, the AIDS virus, polio, the Bubonic plague, and ebola. Tell that to the thousands of children who die from diseases such as as malaria and dysentery every year. Tell that to the parents of children with Downs syndrome or other congenital defects. Tell that to the millions that suffer with chronic lower back pain.

While you're at it, tell us how one would recognize "design" in something in the natural world. Say in a rock, a snowflake, or a pile of dung.

Check out answersingenesis.com for more on this.

Been there, done that. It's good for a laugh, that's about all. You should really try reading more real science if you want to seriously discuss evolution.

An also, since we are created by God, it follows suit that we should follow what He says dosen't it? It seems foolish to do otherwise!

Well, you fail on the first assertion. There's no evidence we were created by any god. The Genesis creation account is clearly a myth. The evidence clearly and conclusively indicates we've evolved from ancestor species.

And, as somebody else mentioned, even if we were created by a god, it does not necessarily follow that we should follow what he says. Look in the OT laws; there's a law that says if your child curses his mother or father, he is to be put to death. Would you follow what God says there?

You make God out to be some frustrated demigod who has a temper tantrum if He can't get His way.

Actually, the God I've described doesn't exist. I'm talking about a common Christian concept or definition of God that you apparently believe in. If there is a god (and I strongly doubt that there is), then it's not the God you describe.

The reason that you or anyone is considered an "atheist" is because you don't want to be accountalbe, you want to live your own life.

Once again, totally wrong. The reason I'm considered an atheist is that I lack belief in god(s); nothing more, nothing less. Yes, I want to live my own life; everybody does, even you. No, I'm not accountable to a non-existent god; why should I be? But I am accountable; to my family (esp. my wife and son), to my society, to the global community in general, to the environment on which we depend for our very existence, and, perhaps most importantly, to myself.

With no standards. I can't think of anything more hopeless or pointless then that!

What makes you think that atheists have no standards? That's pure baloney. The standards of most atheists I know are at least equal and commonly superior to the standards of most believers I know. As an extreme example, but one that illustrates the standards that exclusive religions like Xianity and Islam can lead to, those weren't atheists that hijacked the planes on 9/11.

One of my standards is that I try not to judge people, especially not prejudge them as you do here, by saying things such as they have "no standards" and "don't want to be accountable." If I'm not mistaken, the bible even mentions something about not judging...

And my standards would never condemn the majority of humans that have ever lived to eternal suffering in hell for their acts in a finite life. Now, there's a lack of standards if I've ever heard one.

Mageth

Originally posted by One Way
Yes, In fact evolution is a belief. You were not there when earth was formed, you are assuming that Big Bang is the only way.

As was said, evolution (descent with modification from a common ancestor) is so well-supported that it's considered a fact. The mechanisms of evolution are considered evolutionary theory.

And you were not there when the earth was formed, either. And the earth was not formed by the Big Bang. And science consideres the Big Bang as a theory that best fits the evidence of how the universe began; it doesn't consider it "the only way."

You're mindlessly babbling about something you apparently know nothing about, One Way. Why don't you try reading some real science literature and stay away from the BS of AiG for a while?

Consider the following quote:

"Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of
Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested, and in some cases untestable, assumptions.
Indeed, big bang cosmology has become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth.'Burbidge, G., 1992. Why only one big bang? Scientific American, 266

Passing off quotes from AiG or ICR mined out of context is not considered a valid argument around here, One Way. It's important to note that Burbridge is speaking his personal opinion here and is not the mouthpiece of science in general.

Evolution, and the Big Bang in fact is just a theory (catch that). It can only ever be that.

OK, I'll catch it. Actually, I already have above. But I'll address the common misconception stated as "just a theory" or "only a theory."

Read this; it does a better job than I could.

As for answersingenesis being a scam? I suggest you actually read it through first instead of making vague assumptions on it. If you can show where the 'scam is' I would be glad to see it.

I have read it, or large chunks of it. One example of its being a "scam" is illustrated above, in its common practice of quote mining, typically leaving out bits that would clarify the quote and not look so favorably on their position, and thus misrepresenting what the person quoted actually believes, and passing this off as some kind of valid argument in support of their position. Another example is misportraying science in such ways as saying "evolution = random chance" and evolution is "just a theory." Some of the people there surely know enough about science to know these are gross misrepresentations, yet they continue to mislead the general public by posting such nonsense.

Remember, Hell is not torture, it is just, God has given a way now.

Sheesh. Evolution is random chance and hell is not torture, it is just. That pretty much says it all.

Biff the unclean

Ah, sigh, I must be getting old.
Somebody explain this to me please.
God gave man "free will because he did not want you to be a mindless robot"
Okay, I thought I understood that. But now we get…
"God expects perfect obediance. Nothing less then this will do, if it does, God ceases to be holy. "
So God does want you to be a robot. Or he doesn't, or he wants Jesus to be a robot…or what?

Now explain to me why when we can see that the universe is expanding just as one would expect if it was the result of an explosion that it is screwy to think that it came from an explosion. But it isn't screwy to think that some god, who you have never seen, said magic words and it popped into existence? When you are explaining that I'd also like to know why the magic universe from the bible does not resemble the one we live in.

When you are done with that we can get on to the magic blowing of the magic pile of dust as opposed to slight changes over time.

Family Man

Because at it's heart it doesn't matter what you do, it is what you believe. I take it that you, Tired Runner, are a Christian. I could be exactly like you, in all ways, but under the Christian scheme I would be punished for not believing while you would be rewarded. I'm sorry, but to me that's a terrible system. But it's a great system if you want to build up a religion.

I'm sure that's true for some. My father, after his initial post-conversion fundamentalist frenzy (you know how converts can be) has been a much better person than he was before (though it did require that my mother file briefly for divorce). But it's also true that people improve after they convert to Islam, or Buddhism, or in my case atheism. Your improvement isn't an argument for the truth of Christianity.

No, good old human nature has done it's work. There's is nothing special about Christianity. Those who "live in the Spirit" probably would have changed anyway if they really felt that they needed a change in their lives. Christianity may be the catalyst for some, but it is hardly the sole requirement for change for the better.

hinduwoman

At times Christianity seems to me to be very world-negating religion.
world is bad, humans are bad, work/believe so that you can leave this world forever and live with God. It is really surprising why suicide is a sin in christianity.

lpetrich

Or Argumentum tauristerculinum.

PandaJoe

From AiG's Statement of Faith -

So, if the data doesn't match our conclusion, it's wrong. One of many reasons AiG is just a laughing stock.

Opera Nut

OH, and if atheists have no moral standards then why are the VAST majority of violent criminals who are in jail for murder, etc. Christians?? Including serial killer and cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer??

Or Karla Faye Tucker, the tiny woman who killed a six foot tall woman and a large man with a PICKAX??? And left the pickax in Deborah Thornton's CHEST???

Or Hitler, the good Catholic??

And don't give me that crap that they didn't know right from wrong before they became Christians. EVERYBODY knows that killing someone just because you feel like it, in a civilian situation, is WRONG. Everybody knows that. You don't need Xtianity to know that murdering somebody in cold blood is wrong.