crocodile deathroll

His is not a moron He is cunning and devious just like Jimmy Baker and Jimmy Swaggart. He is just capitalizing on peoples gullibility and hold their "souls" to ransom and threatening them with eternal damnation in Hell if they do not follow him and eternal bliss in Heaven if they do. And he laughs all the way to the bank.

Quote:

Of course, we all know people only wear clothing because the bible tells us to. Has nothing to do with protection from cold, weather, etc, or the fact that: "Most people look better with their clothes on!" - Rosanna Rosannadanna

Well you may be right. Imagine a football crowd that is all skin colored and the players would could not tell each opponent apart with no team colors.
And what will happen to the fashion industry. The world would look pretty boring would you agree.

John Solum

Hi excreationist:

Does Ham say when the old days were? Has there ever been a time when brothels weren't legal in some part of America? I even remember reading about an officially sanctioned red light district near Salt Lake City back in the 1880s or so.

Ham's claims that schools admit all sorts of "questionable beliefs and theories" but not young earth creationism annoys me. When I was in school I was never indoctrinated in New Age philosophies or Eastern religions, or anything like that. I don't believe Ham's claims are accurate. I'm sure there are schools that have classes on such topics, but I doubt they're a standard part of curricula. Even if they are taught in schools, I don't see the harm in introducing students to other religions/points of view.

Ham talks about moral degredation and the declining influence of Christianity. He seems to relate this deciline in morals to an increase in the influence of "evolutionism". I don't know if the 40s and 50s are the "old days" Ham refers to, but from listening to people who have similar points of view, I think that's a logical conclusion. If an increase in the influence of evolution is responsible for the moral decay that Ham sees, then he ought to be able to demonstrate that belief in YEC was more common back in the good old days. I don't think he can show that, in fact I'd wager that in the 40s and 50s a smaller percentage of Christians believed in YEC than do today. I guess that means that I can relate the increase in the acceptance of YEC among Christians to the moral decay in the US).

Ham's claim about "two religions in conflict" is also inaccurate. Not all scientists are atheists, and not all Christians are Young Earth Creationists. I know he'll dismiss organizations like the <a href="http://www.asa3.org/index.html" target="_blank">American Scientific Affiliation</a> and the <a href="http://www.wheaton.edu/acg/" target="_blank">Affiliation of Christian Geologists</a>, but he can't deny that there are Christians in those organizations who accept evolution, etc.

Ham also seems to imply that if you're an atheist you're not a moral person (and of course, Christians are the most moral people of all). I don't think Christianity has a very good track record in behaving morally. There has been a lot of blood shed in the name of Christianity over the last 2000 years. I know that Ham would dismiss the people who committed those acts as not acting like true Christians (I even agree with him there), but the fact remains that a lot of people have been killed for religious reasons.

I wish people would take the time to find out what the concept of "theory" means in the scientific sense before they made statements like that. The theoretical framework of evolution explains the facts of evolution (the fossil record indicating that life has changed, etc.). Modifying or even discarding the theory does not alter the facts.

I wonder what his view of sex between females is? Personally, I don't find this argument convincing. What about kissing? Is that a natural use of body parts?

I agree with you here. I don't understand Ham's burning need to control how other people behave. He may think it offends God, but I think that as a Christian he should acknowledge that a person's behvaior is between them and God. I don't understand why Ham and people like him are so threatened by homosexuality and gay marriage.

This is one of my favorites. The theory of evolution doesn't have moral implications. I'd compare Ham's point of view to saying that we should reject the theory of gravity because according to the theory of gravity objects are attracted to the earth, and so if we accept the theory of gravity why shouldn't we throw babies out of windows? Clearly the theory of gravity must be wrong because it's wrong to throw babies out of windows. I don't think that's the best analogy, but I hope it gets my point across.

That makes sense to me, not many counties in Nevada have populations that large. I've never seen an ad for a brothel, but I have seen cars that say "Mona's Ranch" on them in Wells, Nevada, and I doubt that Mona raises cattle.

crocodile deathroll

[/QUOTE]
Ham talks about moral degredation and the declining influence of Christianity. He seems to relate this deciline in morals to an increase in the influence of "evolutionism". I don't know if the 40s and 50s are the "old days" Ham refers to, but from listening to people who have similar points of view, I think that's a logical conclusion. If an increase in the influence of evolution is responsible for the moral decay that Ham sees, then he ought to be able to demonstrate that belief in YEC was more common back in the good old days. I don't think he can show that, in fact I'd wager that in the 40s and 50s a smaller percentage of Christians believed in YEC than do today. I guess that means that I can relate the increase in the acceptance of YEC among Christians to the moral decay in the US).

[/QUOTE]
Moral degradation! is he serious, surely not. In the old days there was slavery, black segregation, the Jewish Holocaust in Germany, not mention the Scope Monkey trials, the forced removal of children by missionaries from their parents, poor civil rights, pre Vatican II, gruesome home abortions.
Old days! He will take us back into the dark ages if He has his way.

crocodile deathroll

notto

And a lot more Demons and Evil Spirits!!

I think that science has drastically reduced the number of reported cases of demon possession and certainly has reduced the number of reported cases of evil spirits causing diseases (not to mention a reduction of reported cases of natural disasters caused by making God mad or witches putting curses on the whole village).

Of course every time you close a gap, they have to open one up, otherwise the God of the Gaps just doesn't work!

Kosh

Moral degradation! is he serious, surely not. In the old days there was slavery, black segregation, the Jewish Holocaust in Germany, not mention the Scope Monkey trials, the forced removal of children by missionaries from their parents, poor civil rights, pre Vatican II, gruesome home abortions.
Old days! He will take us back into the dark ages if He has his way.
</strong>[/QUOTE]

It seems that he's suffering from a common
misconception. I wish I had this to cut and
paste in here in it's original form, but I've
read a quote from a preacher where the guy is
talking about the declining morals of todays
youth. He talks about how bad things are getting,
how we have to return to discipline of the old
days, etc. You read going, "Yeah, I know what
he means". Then comes the shocker, the attribution
line is..... Martin Luther (not KING) (15th century? don't remember). Seems even
in the old days, they longed for the old days.

I'm sure there's some psychoanalytic term about it
concerning nostalgia, etc.

Looks to me like every generation:

- Believes things are getting worse
- Believes the end of the world is near

excreationist

John Solum:
So when is Ken going to Grand Rapids?

That's the Mormon's hometown isn't it? Well what do you expect from those perverted people. Actually he doesn't really seem to mention prostitution anyway. But he does talk about pornography... and that is everywhere - I mean lots of TV shows have fairly explicit sex scenes and there are shows that have women in bikinis, etc. Remember how things used to be - like the swim-suits and strip shows (like Moulin Rouge) in the 1900's...

But don't you see - kids are being led away from Jesus to false gods instead! In the good old days (the dark ages) all they taught in schools was about Jesus and young-earth creationism.

I guess the good old days was in the days of the founding fathers, Martin Luther and soon after Jesus's ministry. I mean they didn't have atheists and the theory of evolution back then. In the 40's or 50's at least people knew that things like homosexuality was wrong, but now many Christians are so misguided that they think that there isn't anything wrong with it. Many Christians did believe in evolution in the 40's and 50's but they also believed in Jesus. In the 60's and 70's people began to turn away from Jesus a lot I think...

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM+1:26&language=english&version=NL T&showfn=on&showxref=on" target="_blank">Romans 1:26</a> - it is shameful.

It doesn't specifically say the death penalty should be used, but there is this verse:
Leviticus 20:16 - "If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Of course it is.

Here are some verses saying that kisses are holy:
Romans 16:16 - "Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings."

1 Corinthians 16:20 - "All the brothers here send you greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss."

2 Corinthians 13:12 - "Greet one another with a holy kiss."

1 Thessalonians 5:26 - "Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss."

1 Peter 5:14 - "Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ."

Of course, they can be used for evil as well, like when Satan possessed Judas and kissed Jesus.

They don't care if there are no other reasons. Their all-knowing God told them it's wrong so it must be. Otherwise the strength of the Bible starts crumbling.

That means that there is an absence of morality then?

Corey Hammer

John, you might try this.

"Mr Hamm, where in the Bible does it specify how God created all living things? Not that He did it, but how He did it."

If he brings up Adam and Eve, remind him that you asked about all living things.

Would Hamm have any other answer to that?

Corey Hammer

Got another idea too....


Ask if Hamm if he would agree that God is infinite. Then ask how we as finite beings could possibly understand God through such a finite instrument as a book. That wouldn't such a book be a flawed representation of the truth and unsuitable to how the world really is.

excreationist

Well he'd say that the universe must have been made in <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1316.asp" target="_blank">six literal</a> days. And in the beginning, the earth was without form and void. i.e. no life. Then God created the life.
Also, from <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp" target="_blank">Arguments we think creationists should NOT use</a>
Well of course people can't fully understand God.

Philippians 4:7 - "And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

Christians can be capable of understanding some things about God though, like the sacrifice of his son. (BTW, I'm an atheist)

Corey Hammer

Right and then John could retort with "I already know God's to do list and didn't ask for it. I asked you how He did all of it."

...or something like that.

The whole point is to turn his tricks on him.