Starshark

Let me say straight up where I stand on veganism. I ain't one. Not only do I eat honey, cheese and eggs, but I also eat most types of meat with the exception of rabbit, pork, and whatever I don't happen to like the taste of (octopus comes immediately to mind, along with several other types of seafood).

Glad to get that out of the way.

Vegans tend to justify* their choice along the lines of 'killing animals causes suffering, suffering is wrong, therefore killing animals is wrong'. A valid argument - but are the premises true?

Kangaroos, left alone, can reach unsustainable numbers in Australia (Source... Note this source doesn't mention one other reason for increasing numbers in the kangaroo population: their predator was the indigenous population, which has been displaced by European colonists meaning they effectively have no predators except the odd feral dog). What this means in a country where water is scarce is that these animals die in large numbers... slowly. Farmers often report (for example, in Mudgee and Gulgong) during times of drought of kangaroos dying of thirst and starvation.

Here's the problem: If it causes less suffering to kill the kangaroos quickly (ie, with a rifle) than to let them die naturally, is it wrong in this instance to kill kangaroos? And, if so, does this not undermine the argument for veganism?





















*This thread is not meant to be a shit-fight with vegans, along the lines of "Nyah, you're different, I hate your lifestyle". On many bulletin boards, vegan debates often descend to this level. I would like to head this off at the pass, simply because I'm interested in ethical issues, not press-ganging people into doing what's 'right' or 'wrong'. However, due to my less than perfect command of the English language, I've used words that are value-laden and can be misinterpreted, like 'justify'. Please do not take this to mean that I am suggesting vegans are trying to spin their lifestyle. Let's debate!

premjan

Maybe it would be a good idea to clone a carnivous kangaroo (or recreate a thylacine) which would feed on its herbivorous cousins?

Why don't you eat pork BTW? Jewish / Muslim?

Groovy Cosmic Monkey

I am not a vegan, nor am I 'black and white' about this issue, so I can certainly see exceptions to general rules and note that in certain instances, killing may be more humane than allowing to live (or more desirable based on environmental reasons).

So, in the case of kangaroos, presuming your facts are correct, I would agree that killing them quickly and relatively painlessly is less cruel than allowing them to die a slow, painful death.

However, this argument does little to undermine the general argument for veganism (or vegetarianism for that matter); all it shows is that the argument has to give room for specific scenarios that go outside the general rule.

In the case of chickens, cows and pigs - which are three of the most commonly eaten foods in Western countries, it is extremely difficult to create an equally compelling argument for why we should eat them. We breed these animals and treat them under such cruel conditions that the arguments for vegetarianism and veganism are very much alive and well.

Starshark

No, I just like pigs. They're incredibly intelligent.

Chickens have personality, too, but their too dumb to know when they're going to die. Trust me on this one.

I'm pretty much of the mentality, 'if you wouldn't kill it, don't eat it'. I've owned goats (no problems killing them, especially after some choice tumbles I've had with them) and sheep (I'd GLADLY kill more of them... SHEEP ARE EVIL!), cows... But not pigs. They're just too adorable.

Ditto rabbits. I mean, rabbits are too stupid to know when they're going to die, too, but I just like them too much. I have two running around my house.

premjan

Cows probably aren't too smart, but apparently they are pretty peace-loving (may not be true of other bovids) which is one reason Hindus give why they should not be eaten...

I agree that the intelligence and cuteness factors do come into play where eating animals is concerned.

Starshark

That's true. I submit, though, that it is possible to raise these animals in more humane conditions for food... As long as we're willing to cut down on the amount of meat we eat. Say goodbye to the days of 'meat takes up a third of the plate'.

yalla

Ah Mr. Manifesto I'm afraid I am going to have to criticise your source[s].
Let me explain.
I own a property, complete with 3 species of kangaroos, in the rangelands of Australia-as referred to in your source the Australian government.
And we have just had 2 years of severe drought.
Not extreme 1 in 50 years type drought but pretty bad.
And the kangaroos on my property barely noticed.
They just shut their reproductive systems down...they can do that.
You see in the Oz rural areas there is an old motto ..."if it moves shoot it, if it stands still cut it down''. And that ethos is still alive and well in my and other regions of Oz and penetrates to official government policy.
Locals around here shoot roos, legally and illegally, at the drop of a hat. I can personally vouch for that. It's pervasive.
If you want to get a licence to "cull" [nice word that] roos a simple phone call is sufficient. I know, I got offered a kill licence by the relevant authority without even wanting or asking for one.

[Hey I just checked, you are one of us, surely this is not news to you?]

To continue...
Roos rarely starve, it has happened but rarely, their adaptation to drought is so efficient.
And they don't compete with domestic stock even when on the same land.Sheep and cattle graze differently to roos, much less efficiently.
Many years ago some W.A. agriculturalist academic pointed out that the economic value of raising roos on a given piece of rangeland would far outweigh that of sheep/cattle. I would strongly support commercial cultivation of roos.
I'm afraid that we are the victims of cultural and economic inertia in this regard and the Oz govt. dept is just exercising apologia.
And I'm not adverse to a nice piece of roo steak, the last time I ate roo was a couple of days ago.

Groovy Cosmic Monkey

Absolutely.

premjan

If we cut down on the number of humans that would also make meat eating more sustainable. Reduced reproduction for a couple of generations ought to do the trick.

Sarpedon

What do roos taste like?