Vibr8gKiwi

Another thing about that silly myth... so Adam and Eve were warned they would die. How would they even know what that was since there was no death? They might as well have been told the day you eat that fruit you will surely Flippidigibbit. And it's anyone's guess if Flippidigibbit is even bad or undesirable.

But then you're not actually supposed to think about these silly myths, you're just supposed to believe them as fact. Riiiiight.

MrDarwin

What I find even more incredible is that we are to believe God punished Adam and Eve for their disobedience, even though when they disobeyed, they had no idea that what they were doing was wrong. They did not have any knowledge of good or evil until after they had eaten the fruit. In other words, God punished them for doing something he had created them to be unable to understand as wrong in the first place.

Vibr8gKiwi

Another good point MrDarwin.

Gemma, how are you able to ignore all these problems and silliness and convince yourself this is the word from the Creator of the Universe(tm)? How can this not appear--as it does to most of us--as the obvious invention of primitive human minds? These sorts of issues pervade through every aspect of Christianity. It must take a (misguided) will of iron for an intelligent person like yourself to force belief in the flatly unbelievable. Or is it just that so many humans can fool themselves easier than I imagine?

Volcanen

Alright I will make one comment about age, I am not to young to understand any basic concept, and furthermore it is insulting for people to believe it so. Now to my comments on this topic, well we now know free will is "implied" supposedly in the bible, and yet it is not actually said, I wounder why? Again we bring up Adam and Eve, here is one inconsistency for you, wouldn't we all be dead right now due to inbreeding? or at least look much different now? and another discrepency is the story of Noah, 2 of each animal and any one who wanted to be saved, well how that one got pulled off is a surprise to me with all the animal species around now and then, that was a big boat, and yet it brings the inbreeding thing again. It also could not have covered the world, people lived after it and during the time it supposedly happened remember. Oh and by the way would it be the sme thing for someone to go and free sweat shop laborers and say I saved now worship only me as your god? That is basically what was implied in earlier statements. So far my whole impression with the bible is that it can be disregarded as fiction, much like any sci fi book or fantasy book you have ever read. Oh and do you think, perhaps, that free will was an idea of a theist who decided to not go worship on sunday, and when they were not incenerated or killed right off there must be some reason why, so they decided on free will. However it maks more sense to have an agnostic or atheist think of the idea, as an explanation for why we can do what we want within certain limits, after all we have to follow physics. Oh as one last point, if god was so big on worshiping only him then why is it that we were given free will? If someone can give me a straightforward answer for this I will be surprised somewhat. And if god did exist then why is it he will let atheists, agnostics, and "sinners" burn in hell for all eternity? I think that would be considered as malevolent by many of the indutrialized countries standards.

Samhain

Not to mention the billions who worship religions other than JC. Also, if we are to believe the claims of many xtian denominations, there is only *1* true denomination which will be saved at death. Well...We're now running: Hell - Population: 98,901,786,893 Approx. and Heaven - Population: 23,491 and that's being generous.

David M. Payne

OK Gemma, fair enough, I applaud you for admitting the truth, the free will argument isn’t in the bible. So lets take the obvious next step, who made the free will doctrine up? Was it God? That is what you say in your post above, isn’t it? Where might we find his word on this, if not in the bible? If it was “created” or “discovered” by some saint or Pope etc, who was it, and did they get the argument directly from God and just pass it on to the rest of us? Or did it nebulously appear out of thin air one day a long time ago? Perhaps it was created to deflect the argument of Gods moral responsibility for /inability to prevent, evil, here:
“In a formulation of the problem attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus (341-270 BC) (see Epicureanism), either God can prevent evil and chooses not to (and therefore is not good) or chooses to prevent it and cannot (and therefore is not all-powerful).” (From MS Encarta)
Can you site a source for this doctrine that has been used to excuse God from all evil done in his name?
I even more humbly await you enlightenment on this question. Hopefully you will be the first theist here to produce an authoritative reference for this doctrine.

David

Gemma, I haven’t heard your reply yet, are you hiding from this?

Thanks for dropping in luv, always nice to hear from you. OK, so the free will doctrine isn’t in the bible, no one knows where it came from, but somehow any rational thinking person must believe it came from God, because, well, because we say so. That’s your story and your sticking with it. The problem I have with this line of reasoning; is that this is clearly an invented doctrine, not the word of “God”, used to cover the ass of your God when people note that boy, there sure is a lot of evil being done in the name of God, and its been going on for over two thousand years! See 9/11 for the latest, but surely not the last example of this evil.

Oh no, God is only responsible for good! Humanity and (whisper) the devil are responsible for evil, you plead. That’s a pretty good deal if you ask me, God, the omnipotent and all seeing one, the one who can do anything he wants, gets all the praise for all the good in the world, and all the blame for any evil is shifted to us poor mortals, with a little (whisper) devil thrown in for good measure. Luvluv, Gemma, how long do you think people are going to fall for this shuck and jive routine? OK, you’ve had over two thousand years of this con game, a pretty good run, but as humanity becomes more educated to reality, (cough, 9/11, cough) this God/religion scam will lose more and more people. The free will doctrine, like the myth of God and the “truth” of the bible, is part of the longest scam that has ever been perpetuated on humanity. The cost has been, and will continue to be, enormous in lost lives and social disorganization and strife.
Well you two; you say what you say, we say what we say, and the looser goes up in a puff of smoke, metaphorically speaking. I like our chances. Don’t look now, but I think I see smoke coming from your hair.
9/11 is going to be a watershed for the people who believe in what is real, as opposed to those who, like you two, believe in what they would like to believe is real. I think your probably pretty nice people, but you are somewhat naïve, and probably were indoctrinated in this myth at a very young age. To get someone hooked on God, like getting them hooked on smoking or other drugs, it’s best if you get to them when they are young. When they get older, it’s harder to get that hook into them, isn’t it?

David

The Messiah

quote:
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Originally posted by Gemma Therese,

I am going to be a high school English teacher amd a religious sister.

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The prospect of you getting you hands on children terrifies me. Will you endeavour to show them the fulfilling ways of true ignorance. Blinding them with the joyous light of absolute stupidity. Who knows perhaps you could create a fundamentalist ready to hurl himself selflessly against the crimes of Allah against God's chosen people, or some other equally unconvincing tripe that any retarded goat herder could have made up thousands of years ago.

Gemma Therese

Don't waste your breath.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]</p>

The Messiah

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Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
quote:
Don't waste your breath.
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So your mind is officially closed. What do you plan to do with a child that questions your pathetic beliefs?

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: The Messiah ]</p>

Gemma Therese

I will let them think or believe whatever they want to think or believe, but, if I end up teaching theology, I will be in a Catholic HS, so I must teach Catholic doctrine.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]</p>