melinie007

What exactly does the law say? The stance is a Pro-CHOICE position rather then a Pro-ABORTION position, and I think that is a important distinction. In a Pro-Choice position we cannot honestly expect women who think that abortion is MURDER to make that choice.

Its a ridiculous notion? I confess it is a ridicuolous way to set up a legal system -- imagine having to analyze why the woman had an abortion and getting to the truth of it - it would be very difficult. But it is not ridiculous to recogonise when we are talking about law reform to allow men an 'out' from providing for there children.

From a moral positon it is wrong to just throw around this idea that 'only the law matters' if a morally conentious option is legal. ot does not follow that women must take it despite her personal beliefs.


Innocent? Limiting the discussion to accidental pregancies without fraud, aren't both parties equally innocent in the resulting situation? Is it really ok to say that because the man doesn't have the option of removing something growing inside of him all the moral blame lays with the woman?

Well, I guess we disagree. I think the fact that a woman has to carry a growing thing (or baby) around inside her for 9 months, eat for it, breath for it, be unable to do a lot of things because of it... have her personal body invaded by it... regardless of if she wanted to give it to it.

Because she takes the sole moral responsibility for 'murdering' it or 'removing it' -- because the law has said she has that choice and society has a shitload to tell her on what she should do.

So YES, I think that that is a reason to give her opinions and values a bit more weight.


I second this. Regardless of your own viewpoint on abortion, for some women it is a BABY, a tiny little potential baby that could be born. We can't just say 'the law says you have a choice' and tell women to commit acts they think are murder. We can't blackmail them into it.

If the law said that a baby could be killed up to 6 months after birth, would we expect women to do that if the man wanted to bow out? Could we say 'the law says she has a choice, if she doesn't do it she is solely responsible'? Why not - because you think that this would be morally wrong and thus an awful situation? What about the woman who feels that way about abortion? What's the difference? Your personal morality?

Pyrrho

Don't worry about it. I have never been angry with you for anything I have ever read that you have written. I wrote of a hysterectomy ONLY because that was what someone else wrote about. You are quite correct, a tubal ligation is more sensible for birth control than a hysterectomy (and, of course, a vasectomy for the man is far more sensible, as we both have said). I should have discussed a tubal ligation instead of a hysterectomy (though everything I said about a hysterectomy applies to a tubal ligation also). You were quite right to post a reply and point this out.

By the way, that death rate for vasectomies seems awfully high to me. Unless the guy moves suddenly and violently during the procedure, or the person performing it has a sudden spasm, I don't see how anyone could die from it; it must be that they die from infections later. It is something you could do to yourself (if you were a man), though obviously it would not be fun, and I would not recommend that. Frankly, I would be surprised if the death rate for a vasectomy were worse than for an accidental cut that pierces the skin (you don't have any numbers on that, do you?).

Pyrrho

I agree. But, I am a happily married man, and am monogamous, so my opinion on such things has little impact on the world.

It seems that men either tell women that they must have the child, or men tell women they must have an abortion. Men seem to enjoy telling women what to do, and they, of course, are "innocent" victims whenever they get a woman pregnant.

My advice to men is, if you are not absolutely sure what the woman will do, and you don't want the risk of an unwanted pregnancy, then either get a vasectomy, or don't have sex with any fertile women. Your choice to have sex has consequences, and if you don't like the consequences, then you shouldn't be having sex. If you don't think the law is fair on this, too bad, life isn't fair. It isn't fair that women can get pregnant and men cannot, either. So the law is, perhaps, only making things a little fairer.

My advice to women is to not have sex with any men. (Fortunately for me, my wife won't take that advice.)

Soyin Milka

I just lost any sympathy I had for your viewpoint.

You choose the laws you want, I don't care personally. By the time I'm ready to have a child, I'll be financially able to provide for her/him on my own, without any help from a man. My relatives and friends can also provide many positive make role models my my child.

Financial independance and new reproduction technologies mean a woman no longer requires a man to have and raise a child. If you don't pay more attention to women's viewpoints, like Lunachick's, the laws intended to protect men from unwanted fatherhood may lead to men being more and more excluded from fatherhood.

Just in case you worry about it, I don't hate you or anyone who holds views similar to yours either.

Soyin

Soyin Milka

Whoops.
Then I apologize once again. For some reason, I was under the impression you had been the first to bring that up. You're a really good sport for taking it the way you did.

Soyin

Buddrow_Wilson

My advice to women....etc etc.

The fairness of law is the point of this thread, If all you are going to say is too bad, please don't bother.

Women: Even if you do get child support payments, the burden of raising a child is still disproportionately yours. You must realize this. Nothing will change the fact that a pregnancy is and the possible life that results will be dealt with primarily by the female if the male is unwilling to be a part of it. You should have the attitude of this: Who is the one that will bear the brunt of a pregnancy? Who has the most interest in preventing one? It is indeed an unfair world. Act accordingly.

lunachick

I just had a thought! (Oh, don't laugh. )

One of the reasons I feel so angry at the suggestions made here, is perhaps I see a kinda of weird parallel between the ideas contained herein and the rationalisations of the religious Puritans (or were they Calvinists?) in their ideas of women, "a womens place", sex, birth, life and death.

No, no, bear with me... please?!...


While they are from different times, trends, and mind, they both seem to be similar in heart, gut and groin!
What I mean by that is: "It's all her fault."
She's a temptress, a devil, a whore, a cheating liar and a thief! It's all her fault I couldn't take responsibilty for my own sexual urges and potential consequences.
I will not pay! She bought it all on herself - I was seduced! - damn her and any possible bastard child of mine to hell! I AM INNOCENT!!

Theatrics aside - I think, figuratively speaking, the abdication of male accountabilty, and the shifting of blame and culpability in this very serious matter - and it IS a serious matter when we are talking about the very stuff of life - that from my own humanist perspective; life is not so clearcut, the law is an ass, religion is an ass, politics is an ass, and men are just fucking weak. Yes, that's right - weak. They are not innocent. They are equally responsible, whether it was a drunk fuck in the back of a car or a more committed relationship. Men must be made to be equally responsible for their own reproductiveness.

Soyin Milka

I thank God everyday for BOB.

Soyin

Buddrow_Wilson

Should men have any say whatsoever in the decision of abortion?

Pyrrho

I don't see anything unfair about the law requiring fathers to provide financial support for their children. You could just as easily look at it this way: The natural result of having sex is, in many cases, having children. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, she is simply letting the man off easy. But he is not entitled to be let off easy.

The bottom line is, people know (or should know) how children are made, and any man who wants to be sure he isn't a father can take the appropriate steps. If he is unwilling to take those steps, then it is his own fault if he becomes a father. He chose to do what he did, and cannot reasonably blame anyone else for his actions.