seebs

True. However, when you've got a debate that's gone on for two thousand years, I think it's premature for either side to declare victory.

Sorry, shorthand. Your paragraph could be obtained by negating a fundy paragraph and shuffling words.

Pretty much, yes.

I think the idea that theists have some obligation to stick around in a debate, or be accused of dishonesty, is ludicrous, unless you apply it 100% consistently to everyone.

When you say "if a Christian leaves a debate, it's because he's unable to confront the truth", or anything like that, you're saying that he owes you more than he's giving you.

This is equally true on both sides. You're right, you don't owe me anything because I have a position... Nor do I owe you anything just because you have a position. If one of us decides that dinner sounds like more fun than this debate, and never gets around to coming back, it's not because of cowardice, it's because we've got other stuff to do.

Nice for you. I still see no grounds for asserting that EVERY SINGLE TIME that a theist bails on a debate, it's because he was afraid to confront truth.

If the original claim were adapted to be "sometimes" or "occasionally", I'd agree with it... as long as everyone granted that it's true of atheists, agnostics, and everyone else too.

Yeah, people do tend to bail on debates they're losing. They also tend to bail on debates when something more interesting comes up. Believe me, if it's a choice between pizza and this debate, pizza wins.

seebs

Yup. Tragically, the opposing positions ("I am a Muslim because my personal experience...", or "I reject all notions of the metaphysical because my personal experience...") are also irrefutable.

ex-xian

Agreed. But there is difference in losing interest and bailing b/c you are unable to answer the questions and arguments that you are presented with.

How is it possible that two mutually exclusive beliefs can both have utterly irrefutable arguments? Concerning your own reason for being a chrisian...your beliefs are inherently subjective. What makes your belief any more valid than the beliefs of hindus, jews, or muslims who find that their religion fits their personal experience of the world? If nothing, then why are you a christian as opposed to something else? If you do have a reason to hold to xianity rather than another religion, then your subjective experience is not your main reason for being a xian.

Demigawd

LOL! I agree with you there, and that should demonstrate where true human interest really lies: give me concrete substance to live on or bugger off!

Demigawd

Exactly!

Accepting one religion over another is no way different than saying you support one football team over another. There's a cultural bias going on there, and to argue otherwise is to be an apologetic.

seebs

True - but note that "unable to answer arguments" doesn't mean your position is wrong... Most people are not able to reliably answer all arguments against their positions.

I'd answer this, except you answered it yourself.

Yes, that they are, what with being my beliefs and all.

Not so; my subjective experience happens to match Christianity. If my subjective experience matched something else, I'd be something else.

I have no particularly good logical arguments why my position is better than theirs, but it's the one which matches my experience.

ex-xian

Well if a person throws pizza or beer (beer....mmmmmm), then everything goes out the window. Of course, I'll eventually get full and sober up. Which is too bad.....(the sobering up part, that is) :boohoo:

seebs

Did I argue otherwise? Now, that said, I'm not sure it's just cultural bias; I spent a lot of time strongly biased *against* Christianity, too.

There are underlying things which I think may allow us to make stronger arguments, but it seems to me the core influence is always personal experience, same as with anything else like this - morality, philosophy, you name it. All such things are decided, in the end, on "this is how I feel". Everything else is illusion.

Demigawd

Perhaps the real difference between your and my stance is that you actually chose between the available theologies, while I decided that all of them are deficient. Therefore, I keep looking for answers while you're snug as a bug in a Christian rug.

seebs

Oh, I'm still looking for answers. I've just accepted one or two more axioms from which to reason than you have. I'm still solidly under ten.